Safety, from Youth Sports to the Olympics

The whole world is excited for the Olympics this summer. But you might not know how much happens behind the scenes to reduce hazards in global sports. Learn more on this episode of Standards Impact.

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Presented by ASTM International

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JP Ervin (00:15):

Welcome to Standards Impact. I'm your host, JP Irvin, and I'm here with our co-host and an editor in chief, David Walsh. Today we're gonna be talking about standards in sports. So Dave, the, uh, 2024 Summer Olympics are gonna be a big source of excitement. Are there any sports that you're looking forward to watching this year?

David Walsh (00:31):

Yeah, well, when I was younger, my favorite event was what they usually refer to as the World's Fastest Man event, and that's the 100 meter dash. And when I was younger in 1984 Los Angeles, it was Carl Lewis, and I remember getting really excited for that event. Later, everyone can remember in recent years, Hussein Bolt was the world's fastest man, and this year I'm reading that the person who's going to go for that title is, uh, Noah Lyles another American Sprinter. So I'll be ready for that one. I'm looking forward to it.

JP Ervin (01:01):

Yeah, there's a ton of exciting stuff. I think some of the big classic sports are gonna be cool. Tennis, soccer, and swimming. You know, I went to University of Virginia, and that's a big swimming school, so there's, there's several swimmers. So I'm excited to see how they do. Basketball, I think's gonna be really cool, especially Phillys Zone and Joel and Bead competing <laugh>. Um, and then there's also some interesting stuff I'm excited about, like skateboarding and, and break dancing is making its entrance. So I think, I think there's gonna be a lot of really different cool stuff,

David Walsh (01:29):

And that's the biggest thing, you know, in 2024, there were so many more sports than there were when I was younger growing up. And so of course that also creates a bigger need for standards and more, and different events.

JP Ervin (01:40):

Yeah. Well, today I'm gonna be speaking with John Amato, who's a consultant who contributes to running tracks, tennis courts, turf fields, and other areas. And after that, I'll be chatting with Ann Kitt Carpenetti, who is a pioneer in safety issues for lacrosse, one of the world's fastest growing sports. So we're gonna dig into some of those standards and how they're making an impact in Olympic sports and more generally in sports.

(02:03):

Yeah. So, so John, I I wanted to start out kind of big picture and ask, um, in the standards world, we know that sometimes what we do is hidden behind the scenes. Uh, people don't always notice what goes into making the world safer. People don't know where roads and things like that come from and how they function. But sports strikes me as a kind of interesting case because people do see some of the rules, you know, there are safety rules built into the games, and then they see helmets or other safety equipment sometimes, but I think a lot of people don't look deeper than that and kind of just assume it's, you know, kind of chance and what players do on the field that makes everyone safe. So I, I wanted to ask generally about what role standards play in sports. And I, I know you work with surfaces and things like that, but in general, what role do you see standards playing in athletics in the broader sports world?

John J. Amato (02:53):

I think that to cover first, the, the, your statement, which I think is spot on, is most people are really not aware of, of what's behind the scenes when it comes to testing and A STM and, and how we interface with organizations and regulatory bodies and users and constructors who build facilities that our standards might be used as a basis for, you know, criteria. I also like to, when I talk about the subject, I like to mention that the word safety's a tough word. All right. And the word safety's a tough word because everybody looks at it differently. A soccer mom or a soccer dad might look at safety different than a wrestler's parents, all right? They may look at things very different as to how it's going on. When few watch a soccer match and, and one of the players slammed a person into the mat <laugh>, the parents would be pretty upset with that.

(03:46):

So, so I like to look at this as reducing the likelihood of risk and reducing the likelihood of risk is we create situations, we create test methods, uh, we pursue criteria. We try and accomplish that goal, reduce the likelihood of risk. We can't make it all go away. We can't make things safe. Um, most the safety in sports is actually how you play and how athletes interface against each other, and it is against each other when you're playing sports. The foundation of how I look at it is how I dive into issues and test methods that I'm involved in. A little bit about my experience. I've, I've been in a s Tim since about 1998 or 99. Um, I got into it by accident. I was on my way to a project with a friend of mine who was a member, and he said, let's check out this meeting. Uh, it was in San Diego, beautiful day, sailboats on the water, just fantastic. But the subject matter was amazing. I was at, went to two meetings. One was on synthetic turf and the other one was on natural turf surfaces. I'm a nerd, I guess it was exciting, uh, the stuff they talked about, the stuff they worked on, um, it applied to the work I was doing because I, I'm a design engineer. I design sports facilities, outdoor sports facilities, and the surface component and the reduction of risk is a very important aspect of that.

JP Ervin (05:13):

So, as a follow up, I wanted to ask if you could give kind of an overview, maybe this is partially a question about the areas that the committee covers, but also, I guess just in general, kind of some of the broader areas you see standards fitting into sports. Like what are actual sports standards or test methods? What are they?

John J. Amato (05:31):

There are currently about 29, and I call 'em active or semi-active subcommittees. Uh, f FO eight is the main committee. F FO eight covers that category of sports, equipment, facilities, and surfaces. Um, sometimes things fall out of our purview, uh, because of other reasons, but in general, uh, that's the scope of our work. We have committees on natural turf, synthetic turf, miscellaneous playing surfaces, equestrian surfaces, helmets, eye protection, baseball bats, softballs, baseballs, I mean, it goes on and on and on. We cover tree stands for hunters, <laugh>. Uh, so there's a wide range of things that we cover, but most of it is around, is around sports. We have a subcommittee in, uh, archery, um, and archery. If you, well, imagine safety might be a very important part of it, <laugh>, but it's also, we also get into the materials, so it's not just safety. So when we look at archery, for example, we're looking at the bow itself, the rope that's in the bow, and how it all comes together, the pressure, the load, the shape.

(06:43):

Um, so we look at everything and we try and, and we work with people that are far more knowledgeable about these other subjects that I'm really outside my scope. Um, and I can talk a little bit about that, but we have people that cover everything, airsoft, ultralight, planes, things like that. It's just, it goes on and on and on. Cleats, shoes, rust, mats, so I could go on for days. But basically we cover and focus on the area of our subject matter and our subject, my subject matter. I'm very much involved in synthetic turf, playing surfaces, soils, uh, and, and those really are my, my areas, but it's just, it's a big, it's like a Sears catalog when you were a kid. All the things you could find in it. And it just goes on and on and on. For the most part, the goal is improve products, improve systems, reduce risk, and try and do it without aggravating too many people along the way. Mm,

JP Ervin (07:46):

That's great. Yeah, and I think it is a good case study in what we talk about more broadly at A STM about how there, there's just so many standards out there and so many areas that people might not even expect. And your committee is kind of a little microcosm of that because it, it's amazing how many sports and how many different areas of life it covers. So I wanted to ask you then a bit about your specific area. I I know you work mainly with surfaces of various kinds for sports and, uh, synthetics and things like that. So could you tell me a bit about, uh, the areas that you work in and how you got into that? 'cause I think it's also interesting, you know, a lot of people dream of working in the sports world when they grow up. And I, I bet not, not a lot of people knew that they could be an engineer who helps make synthetic turf and things like that. <laugh>

John J. Amato (08:31):

This, it's, uh, it, it, it's not that <laugh>. Um, and, but I like talking about this. I'm a civil engineer. I graduated Georgia Tech, uh, as a civil engineer in 1983. I worked for several small companies for a little while. I had a chance to work for a big company in Boston. I jumped on it outside of Boston, Watertown Sasaki, well-known international architects and designers and planners. And I had a chance to work on something that wasn't your typical civil engineering. It wasn't a subdivision, it wasn't a septics, it wasn't a road, it was a sports facility, a running track up at St. Paul's school. Um, and the one thing I noticed about sports work was that the client, they look at this as one shot and they want to get it right. They're not looking to build something and sell it, turn it over, make a profit.

(09:25):

They're looking at making sports better for their, their school, their institution. And, and it was so different from my regular client base that I, I, for lack of a better way to describe it, I kind of fell in love with it. I, a client that wants you to make good stuff that may cost a little bit more, but provides not just a, not just a simple function, but a function that covers many bases. And I'll give you a good example. Um, having a new facility, a new track at a school may change the people who go to that school and it may, may, may encourage people to take up sports that didn't take up sports. So it's, it's, it's very broad and, and it touches many people at many levels, but really it is the growth and improvement of sports. And I, so I said, you know, that's a good path to take.

(10:17):

So from then on, every project I tried to work on was a sports project. And probably in about, uh, four years of doing that work, probably by 1995, uh, I did probably 95% sports work, sports work, running tracks, ball fields, synthetic turf, tennis courts, basketball courts. I did some pools. I worked on some golf course projects, but it was taking my civil engineering background and applying it to athletics and recreation. And it was more rewarding than a, than a pretty bridge or a building or, so there was something in it that was alive, I guess.

JP Ervin (10:59):

Yeah, that's great. It's an interesting one because it, I think it makes such an impact on people both in terms of, uh, you know, youth and early adult participation in sports, and obviously the very public big profile sports that people follow. And thinking about that, one of the things we're thinking about here at a CM is that the Olympics are coming up, uh, this summer. And so I wanted to ask you about two sports that figure prominently in that I know you work with. And so one is running, um, which I think is interesting because it's one of the most iconic sports in the Olympics in particular because of the symbolism it has as you know, an ancient Greek sport. But I wanted to ask if you could tell us a bit about the role of standards in running surfaces and kind of what, what you do in your experience and what more broadly, what role standards play in that world?

John J. Amato (11:47):

Um, sta standards, standards in running track surfaces focus on many things. They focus on the materials, they focus on the rubber, the performance surface, um, they call it the rubber component. There's also standards for the base that goes underneath it because it's an engineered system. So a running track at a college or a high school or at a major sports venue that's hosting an Olympic track event, it's gonna have a, a stone base pavement underneath that, and the track will be on top of it. There's drainage that's part of that. And the requirements go beyond what the performance characteristics are of the surface. And we look at that in, in the general performance characteristics. We look at force reduction. It has to do with how much energy goes into the ground and how much energy goes back to the athlete deformation. That's an easy one.

(12:41):

And deformation is how much that track surface may, may flex under the load of an athlete. And then there's return of energy into the athlete. And all these things play a function in the performance, but that's just biomechanic and the athlete, you've got other things to consider in it as well, because there are construction related tolerances and requirements that have to be met. A track surface has to be very, very smooth. The term we use is planary. So planary is, is a uniformity across the a surface, a sports surface. It could be any surface, but for running track, the tolerance is in the running direction or one in a thousand. So if you could imagine sitting at one end of a football field by the goalpost and looking at the other end of the football field by the goalpost, think of that's 360 feet basically.

(13:37):

But if you had one in a thousand, that would be like three of those end to end, and it being off by one foot in height. So tolerance that, so think about that tolerance, that's pretty strict, and it has to drain with that tolerance. It has to perform with that tolerance. There's a lot to it. And, and as an engineer, I find that interesting because there is so much to it. And every sport has its bucket of requirements through regulations and through A STM standards and, uh, national federation standards with high school NCAA standards with intercollegiate Olympics has it every regulating body, fifa, FIH, world rugby, uh, it goes on baseball, they all have their regulations and they all, they all need to be met.

JP Ervin (14:21):

Well, the, the other one I wanted to ask about is tennis. And, uh, that's I think especially exciting right now because Wimbledon's going on. I know they're mm-Hmm, <affirmative> famous, freezing a grass course, and I don't know if you, you work with those at all, but I I wanted to ask you about your experience in tennis and broadly how standards fit into that sport.

John J. Amato (14:38):

The standards in tennis have gone a long way. Uh, standard tenors has similar pity requirements. The courts have to be smooth and uniform. Um, they have dimensional requirements. Uh, the nets have height requirements, um, but the surface texture and how it plays becomes extremely important. A running track, your track surface might be about a half inch in thickness in a tennis court. It's a few millimeters, maybe three millimeters, uh, barely really more than that. Um, and the surface is done basically to accommodate what they call pace and pace. Pace is cool. Pace is when you get out in the field with a cannon and you shoot a ball, <laugh>, and I don't do that, but there's testing agencies and companies I work with that do a lot of that work. And what they're looking at is they're looking at, they're at the angle that the ball will bounce at and how the ball spins.

(15:30):

And they, so they want to make sure that the surface and the ball react together to, to minimize the advantage. It gives particular players. Some players might be good with spin, and if the ball, the, the surface catches a spin, uh, and, and changes the function, how it behaves, then someone who, who plays that game has much better control. So they control the range in which all that has to play, um, and, and the angle that it bounces up at. An interesting thing about tennis, when I first got to a STM, and it was like 19 88, 19 99, somewhere in there, the very first meeting in our natural turfgrass meeting, they were talking about a natural turfgrass tennis court and how the knowledge was disappearing. So one of the things we were asked to do, I wasn't involved, um, I was just getting in there, is they were asked to create a test, a test, uh, specification that allows us to document building natural turfgrass tennis courts. And it was kind of neat, and it's the piece of history, and one day there'll be no more natural turfgrass tennis courts, but that document will still be available for people to look at and say, Hey, if we wanted to do that, we could, we could build that core. So it was a kinda a neat curve ball, um, that applied to the work of our committee.

JP Ervin (16:53):

It's interesting that you comment on that, that aspect of the grass to turf. Uh, and some of the other things you brought up, because I've talked to some engineers and working in that world changes how you see things and it's, it's, I have actually have a background in music and it, it's sometimes compared where you kind of know what's going on behind the scenes and it changes how you listen to music or in the case of engineers, it changes how they look at the world around them. So I'm curious is has working in this world changed how you watch sports or you've sweating the whole time you watch your basketball game looking at drops of sweat on the court and watching tennis, analyzing the spin, or it has, you know, has it affected how you kind of think about sports at all?

John J. Amato (17:29):

Yes, of course. If you're interested in something and you see it, uh, a a perfect example is going, watching a football game when a defensive back takes out the legs of a wide receiver who's up in the air and he comes down. Same thing in basketball. I mean, you watch people that playing on a wooden floor and people in basketball, they're in the air pretty high, and a lot of times they land on their backs, their butts, their shoulders, um, and they hit that floor and, and what's the impact of that load when they hit the floor? What's force reduction is developed? How much does the floor deflect? What's the defamation of the floor? So all those things, every time I watch a game, if there's something I'm doing and, and I see it, it's like you've watched football and you've seen in soccer, you've on synthetic turf and you've seen the fly of the info material, right?

(18:16):

And, and, and you go, wow. But yeah, of course all that stuff, you see, baseball's a great sport to think about those kinds of things, forces when a batter softball's the same thing, but a softball is big, it doesn't have the same behavior. But a baseball, you can make that move, you can make that fly and spin off a bat and it changes the direction. Just imagine that and these guys, the, that the level they perform at the pro level of the major leagues, that's just incredible stuff. And then the guy catching a ball, think about that. It's moving 110 miles an hour and you're running, you're trying to catch a ball that moving that fast, and you've gotta have the hand-eye coordination and the speed to be able to catch it, change hands and throw it. Uh, all that stuff is just amazing. Sports is a, is a great study.

JP Ervin (19:05):

Thanks a lot for joining us. It was really nice talking to you and hearing about, uh, your expertise and things like that.

John J. Amato (19:11):

Perfect, perfect. Thank you for the, uh, opportunity. This was fun.

JP Ervin (19:19):

I'm joined today by Anne Kate Kati, who's built a career as a leader in sports operations, and it also contributed a great deal to the growth of safety and standards in the sport of lacrosse. Um, and so Anne, I wanted to start by looking big picture at lacrosse. It's a fascinating sport because it's on one hand, north America's oldest team sport, but it's also one that's really growing fast around the world. And so one of the things I've observed is that with the growth of the game, there's also been a growing awareness of safety issues. And so I was curious if you could start by talking a bit about, you know, how safety has grown with the sport, particularly your own involvement with standard for women's lacrosse equipment and other things like that.

Ann Kitt Carpenetti (19:57):

Yeah, happy to, um, talk a little bit about the evolution of the sport of lacrosse and, um, along with that safety and rural evolution. And I think it's important to note that it is the oldest sport native to, um, the North American continent, but it's also a sport that has been growing exponentially in other continents, but no other continent has experienced a type of growth that we've experienced in, in particular in the United States and then Canada, both at the scholastic and the collegiate levels. I think it's important to note that the, the game of lacrosse has various sets of rules, those for the United States and those for the rest of the world, and the safety, uh, awareness and interventions that we, we probably know more about in the United States are not necessarily embraced or accepted in the rest of the world. So my role currently as president of the Pan-American Lacrosse Association has me working with 22 nations from the Pan-American region.

(21:01):

And, um, the United States follows its own set of domestic rules who are college play, high school and youth, but every other nation in the region follows world lacrosse rules for international play. There's been a lot of evolution in the United States with respect to safety, and that's how I got involved with A STM when working with USA lacrosse, we saw exponential growth, like double digit growth in the two thousands. With that came a lot of coaching that didn't necessarily come from the game. It's rapid growth led to a lot of people who were bringing influences of other sports and contact sports into women's lacrosse in particular, and even in men's lacrosse. And so that, uh, that combined with, um, a real focus around, I would say concussion in the early two thousands, primarily coming from, uh, football and sort of the awareness of, oh, helmets are not, you know, preventing these types of injuries.

(21:56):

Uh, lacrosse at the time, um, was also looking at itself and saying, how can we, uh, grow this sport? Uh, one way we know is by creating a quality experience for kids that's fun and safe, um, and making sure that, um, you know, if there are injuries that we're seeing in trends with respect to injuries and, and there's a way for us to introduce a way to, um, minimize those occurrences, we were gonna explore that. And so, you know, lacrosse way, way, way back, um, men and women's lacrosse were much more aligned, um, but men and women's lacrosse became, field lacrosse became somewhat different versions of the same game with men's fields being more collision and contact oriented and women's across saying more to its origins of minimal contact. But as the game grew and women in the sport became stronger faster, and the exposure of the game grew, so did certain types of injuries that we hadn't seen at the levels we were seeing back in the two thousands.

(23:04):

And we were a game up until 2003 on the women's side that only wore mouth guards on the women's side. And so in 2004, I believe, um, is when eyewear was first required and introduced, um, into the women's game in the United States. Um, and that was from youth all the way up to the ncaa. And again, for decades prior, no, no additional, um, equipment was required except for goalies. It's been an evolution, but it's not an evolution that's just come with like, oh, the goal is to help women's lacrosse ultimately look more like men's lacrosse than a fully helmeted padded version of the game. It's to try to maintain the safety, fun and of each discipline of the sport and make evidence-based decisions that, that are appropriate for the population that we're talking about. It's really interesting. And then we've added a new discipline in our sport within the last five years called sixes, which is the Olympic discipline. And while most of the rules are very similar, the equipment requirements by the International Federation honor the women's not having to wear eyewear, but on the men's side of sixes, they are wearing helmets and pads. It's been interesting, but great to work with an organization like A STM who's helped us explore the concept of standards and, and figuring out what's best to introduce into the game, um, domestically, and then sharing what we know about safety and, and standards with our friends internationally.

JP Ervin (24:41):

I wanted to ask about the specific example of eyewear for women's lacrosse because I, I know you were involved in a pretty pioneering standard here at A STM, um, and I think it, it's a great example of some of the things you're talking about in terms of creating rules specific to lacrosse, also creating, in this case, a rule that's unique to the women's game rather than just adapting the men's game. So I was wondering if you could talk a bit about that example and the process that led to creating that standard.

Ann Kitt Carpenetti (25:08):

Yeah. I actually came into lacrosse, um, in 2004, um, right after eyewear was introduced as a requirement for the women's game. And so probably for the next decade or so, we did, uh, lead a, uh, efforts to study the efficacy of that standard in addressing the kind of injuries we were trying to eliminate, which was orbital eye fractures and really serious but rare eye injuries. And the studies, it was a, a five year pre and post study peer reviewed showed that it was virtually that injury was eliminated from the game, which was excellent. I mean, there were absolutely calls at that time, um, in the early two thousands and even prior to just let the girls just wear helmets because helmets would also address the eye issue because there was a face mask component. And, um, people who, uh, worked on this issue before my time and health and safety experts who advised us going forward, were not convinced that that a helmet was necessary just to address that particular issue.

(26:18):

And so that being said, as I mentioned earlier, um, there's a lot more, we were learning about concussions and head injuries in sport, period. At that time, greater awareness led to greater reporting, and we recognized that while eyewear was an effective intervention to address the eye injuries, um, we were seeing rising rates of head injuries and concussions in men and women. We were interested in learning about the difference in the mechanics of the injuries on, on the men's side, what we learned through research was primary form of concussion in a helmeted version of the game was coming from collision or body to body, head to head. And in women's game, in the non helmeted version, it was incidental contact ball to head, head stick to head. And so again, uh, we were asking ourselves the same question I'm sure people did when we added eyewear is, is, is a helmet the only way to address the kind of head injuries we're seeing in the mechanism that we're seeing?

(27:17):

We don't see the collision, um, type of hits because in women's lacrosse, you're not trained or coached or officiated to, by any means necessary attack the body in order to get the ball. So a lot of probably seven years of study went into really learning about the mechanism and what intervention could address the issues. And again, A STM turned out to be the perfect partner in allowing all key stakeholders in our game to come together from consumers in the world of sport consumers were coaches and advocates and parents, um, and players for laboratory partners who are, you know, doing the testing and, and helping us figure out if we could develop a standard to ensure that it could be tested consistently. Uh, manufacturers as well. They're looking to develop a product that, you know, would be marketable and effective. And it was really very, we knew we were doing something pioneering.

(28:21):

Everyone was committed to creating something that would help make the game safer and wouldn't change the way that people were experiencing the game. Nobody wanted to do anything that stunted the growth. That's where the standard was born in A STM. Um, and it, it, it's already been around through a five-year cycle, a review. When we look at, you know, the importance of an A STM standard, there's the standard that you develop to ensure consistency and manufacturing and, and use, but there's also the importance of educating the public and the consumers, uh, about what does the standard mean.

JP Ervin (28:59):

Great. Well, the other thing I wanted to follow up on is you mentioned the Olympics and Paris 24 is, is a very hot topic right now because it's starting basically when this comes out. But, uh, yeah, I think lacrosse is gonna be in the 2028 Olympics. And so I was curious if there's been a lot of discussion in the lacrosse community and excitement about that, because obviously that's gonna be major international stage.

Ann Kitt Carpenetti (29:22):

Yeah, it is. It's been a very exciting time and, um, this is not Lacrosses first foray in the Olympic games, but after about a hundred years, the sport is returning to the games. It was actually in Los Angeles about a hundred years ago as an exhibition, sport sport, and this is the first time women's lacrosse will be in the Olympic Games, which is pretty cool. Um, you mentioned Paris, where we won't be there, but we will be at the 28 games in Los Angeles. And, um, you know, I think what's a big difference in terms of the sport, um, between a hundred years ago and today is just sheer participation. I believe 93 member nations currently play, uh, lacrosse around the world, and as I said in in the Pan-American lacrosse region that I, I work with closely, that's 22 member nations in North South Central America, in the Caribbean.

(30:17):

And what we'll see in the Olympics with respect to our sport is, I guess I said a new discipline, which is a small sided version of the game, not what you see in NCAA lacrosse, but a very fast and exciting version of the game. Um, and you know, when we play a world championship, now you, you know, you will see somewhere between 30 and 40 countries participate in lacrosse, but when you get into a multi-sport, international Olympic committee run event, you're gonna see the best of the best. And so, um, we expect in the region, uh, for the Pan Americas to see, um, several countries, uh, participating, several nations participating from the region, uh, with some of the best players in the world. And it's going to introduce the sport to millions of people around the world for whom lacrosse is something they may have heard of but never seen. And it's gonna, it's going to build tremendous following and participation. We're really excited about that.

JP Ervin (31:14):

So the other thing I wanted to ask about is what do you see as the kind of future of standards around the cross? So things that maybe growth areas or areas you'd wanna see addressed. I know, I know you mentioned the kind of differences around the globe, but what do you see as kind of next steps going forward?

Ann Kitt Carpenetti (31:29):

Yeah, that's a good question. I think what we've learned in the, in the states in terms of what growth brings and apply that to the international world is that the more more people you have participating in a sport, the more new influences come into the sport. And so you have to, um, expect that the game will continue to change and adapt and evolve. And so I think the sport will have to continue to, uh, work on, you know, whether it be through the lens of the new sixes discipline or even expanding out to other disciplines, how we can make the game more exciting and easy to understand, as I said, and while keeping it safe and resembling the essence of the sport. And so I think as it relates to standards, um, I feel like the work that the United States has done, and with the organization like A SCM, we have, uh, a tremendous amount of research and information available to the international community that when they achieve some level of growth similar to us, and they're ready to sort of explore interventions, potentially to address injuries, they'll, they'll be able to do that, uh, with ease.

(32:43):

I think you'll see more lacrosse and, um, maybe lacrosse looking differently than the way you played it when you were a kid, but still gonna be a great sport to watch and, and put your kid into. Um, regardless, I think we've created a great foundation through work with partners like A STM to ensure that, you know, if there are questions about standards or safety, um, we know a great place where we can go back and work through challenges and solutions.

JP Ervin (33:12):

So the last thing I wanted to ask is about how you got interested in this kind of work. Do you have a background in lacrosse? It's a, I'm sure for a lot of young lacrosse players, you have a dream job, so I was curious to ask about that.

Ann Kitt Carpenetti (33:23):

You know, I, I did play growing up and then I started out my career working in public health. Um, and so when I landed a job at the US Lacrosse, then US lacrosse as a women's director in 2004, it definitely felt like the dream job. Um, and I spent 19 years in my career there, and I, I loved those moments in time where I was able to apply my critical thinking and experience and public health and grassroots organizing and public policy to the work of trying to make the sport safer and grow the game. And then, of course, with respect to, um, these performance standards and, um, and other sim some other safety interventions, it's a privilege and an honor to be able to give back to the sport that has given me so much. And, um, and then of course, as a parent of three kids who play, I just wanna feel like I, I'm doing my part to help ensure that their experience is, is as positive as mine was when I played. So, um, so yeah, just, uh, follow your passion and there are so many opportunities to get back and get involved, get involved with A STM if you have questions about why is something this way and there's a standard beneath it. Odds are a STM has a working group or a committee that's, it's looking at it.

JP Ervin (34:43):

Well, I think that's a perfect way to close. So, and thanks for talking to you today.

Ann Kitt Carpenetti (34:48):

Oh, it's my pleasure. Thank you so much.

JP Ervin (34:53):

I'm JP Irvin and this has been standards impact from A STM International. If you'd like to learn more about sports standards or the many other areas that are affected by A STM, visit astm.org. And if you enjoyed the episode, please like and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.