Alternative Fuels Take Off

Alternative. Renewable. Sustainable. Biofuels. These terms are growing in popularity, but what do they mean for automotive, aviation, and other fuels? 

Learn more on this episode of Standards Impact.

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Transcript

JP Ervin (00:14):

This is a ASTM International Standards Impact. I'm JP Ervin, and on this episode, I'll be looking into new innovations in the fuels that are used to power, automobiles, aircraft, and other vehicles. I'll be talking to experts about biofuels, unleaded, aviation, gas, and other exciting things, helping increase the sustainability and safety of fuels. First I'm chatting with David Walsh, editor-in-Chief of ASTM Standardization News. Dave, I've gotta confess this topic is exciting to me, not just for the sustainability and other angles, but also because I'm someone who's always been fascinated by aircraft. Uh, I grew up on eighties and nineties movies, so I was always drawn to Top Gun Independence Day, air Force one, things like that. And so I, I wanted to ask you, did Top Gun as much of an impact on you as it did for me?

Dave Walsh (01:00):

Oh, yeah. Uh, top Gun in particular was enormous in my childhood. Like most people who grew up in the eighties, watching Maverick go inverted with a Russian MIG was as exciting as it gets when I was 12 or 13 years old. But as we were talking about, I don't think I ever thought very much about the fuels that powered those F sixteens, and that powered the Air Force in those days. It really didn't dawn on me as a kid. And now when you delve into the topic, and especially with the experts today, you learn that there's so much more in it involved, and there's a lot more that goes into the idea of sustainability as you described. And in those days, they probably just ran the jets on as much fuel as they could pump into it. But now there's a, there are a lot of different concerns in the world, so this should be an interesting podcast.

JP Ervin (01:42):

Yeah, it's interesting. I think fuel is one of those topics that like a lot of ASTM standards is hovering in the background, but people maybe don't know all the things that go into keeping their planes in the air and automobiles trucking along. I, it's something I think we notice the most when the price goes up at the gas pump. But I, I won't get us started on that

Dave Walsh (02:02):

<laugh>. Well, that's definitely a concern for most people. But equally concerning in this day and age is, is the idea of sustainability. And back in the eighties, the first Top Gun people didn't really think about that issue very much. Today they look into all different types of alternative fuels, and as our guests will describe, there are many different types of biofuels you can use to lower the carbon footprint and really make things more sustainable in that sense.

JP Ervin (02:26):

Yeah. So on this episode, I'll be speaking to Melanie Tom, an expert on aviation fuel, or avgas as it's sometimes called. But first I'll be talking to alternative and clean fuel specialist, Scott Fenwick, the technical Director for Clean Fuels Alliance America, and Mark Rumison, director of Regulatory Affairs and Quality and Aviation at Air Company. Mark and Scott, thanks so much for being here. I wanted to start by just talking broadly about the question of renewable and alternative fuels. This episode is about fuels and and fuels. So I wanted to dig into some of the elements of what's happening in the industry in terms of innovation, areas that people are talking about and so on. So can you start by just giving an overview of some of these developments?

Mark Rumizen (03:10):

Hi, mark Rumison. I'm the chairman of the, uh, a CM Aviation Fuel Subcommittee. And for that reason, my perspective and my focus is gonna be on aviation fuels, which are somewhat unique because you have to deal with the regulatory aspect that drives the safety of those fuels. And historically, aviation fuels have had an outstanding safety record, as we're all aware. You see airliners, how quick they turn around at airports, how fast they fill up with fuel. Nobody's concerned with the fuel at all. It has an amazing safety record. And to a large degree, that's due to the work that's done by the aviation fuel community at ASTM and the processes that ASTM has and the control that's realized through the use of fuel specifications that A HTM develops. And because of that, we leveraged the ASTM processing community to develop synthetic fuels or what you're calling alternative fuels for aviation to ensure we continue that outstanding safety record. And alternative fuels include renewable fuels as well as non-renewable or non-sustainable fuels.

Scott Fenwick (04:20):

It's really interesting, JP, that you asked that question because most of, of the world really doesn't think about the fuel that they use. As Mark mentioned as a soccer mom or soccer dad, you pull your vehicle up to a, a fueling station, everybody calls it a gas station, and you swipe a credit card, you grab a, a nozzle of a pump, you stick it in a little hole in that vehicle, and you squeeze that handle and nobody sees the fuel. As Mark said, it's ASTMs role specifically, you know, committee D two that covers petroleum products, liquid fuels and lubricants to develop those standards. Whether those are fuel specifications or test methods or practices, guides, all sorts of different types of standards that ASTM develops. It's up to the industry that participates there to develop those standards to ensure the safety and performance of all these fuels.

(05:20):

Now, obviously, we're all used to petroleum fuels. We've been operating on those for, for well over a hundred years around the world. And ASTM has has a whole suite of standards to cover those. But alternative fuels and renewable fuels are relatively new. My day job is technical director for an organization, clean Fuels Alliance America. We're a domestic trade association here in the US representing biodiesel, renewable diesel, and even sustainable aviation fuels that mark covers. We're advocating for those. We're helping to develop that data, that research to bring to A STM to demonstrate performance. We want to ensure that these fuels can be used in today's engines, today's infrastructure, and ensure that, again, the safety and performances there that consumers are going to expect. As Mark touched upon, there is a difference between what we would call renewable fuels and alternative fuels, renewable fuels. While ASTM doesn't have a definition itself yet we're working on it, those would be considered to have some sort of aspect of sustainability to them.

(06:36):

And that's more of a regulatory construct that's different in different parts of the world. Alternative fuels, as Mark mentioned, might more aptly be referred to within A STM as synthetic. And so we may be looking at ammonia and methanol, which may still be petroleum derived as an alternative fuel or a synthetic fuel in, in like marine shipping applications. There are fisher tropes fuels, uh, that were popular back in the forties during World War ii, but they may be derived from coal. And so there may or may not be some aspect of sustainability to those kind of fuels, but they still would be alternative or synthetic fuels that we need to develop those standards for as well.

JP Ervin (07:24):

Great. Thanks. And I think you both touched on a couple interesting aspects with this topic. It's interesting because with a lot of A STM standards, they're kind of hovering in the background and maybe not everyone knows all the work that goes into making products they buy, uh, and fuel seems like a great example. 'cause as you put it, people just roll up to the pump and, uh, get their fuel and then go away and maybe don't know all the intricacies of it. Scott, you also mentioned sustainability, and I think people probably have a sense of why this might matter, but I was wondering if you could both spell out the advantage of using these types of fools or why, maybe why people are interested in 'em, why they're interested in finding alternative sources, or why sustainability is a factor in this. Why, why does that kind of matter when we're talking about fuel?

Scott Fenwick (08:07):

Absolutely. And and that's a great point. ASTM is always working to, to help guarantee the performance, the safety aspect of these fuels. And in some regards, as I mentioned, we're looking to ensure, or, or at least define whether or not we need new infrastructure, new engine technologies, you know, with these different types of fuels. And so we're always evaluating those. The one thing that may be changing faster in the marketplace than the fuels itself is probably the engine technology, at least for on and off-road. So there are lots of emissions after treatment systems, and we need to ensure that there's compatibility within these systems. There is durability within these systems as we're looking not just for performance and, and be able to, to, you know, to drive a mile down the road, but are these fuels going to enable that vehicle, that engine system to last its full useful life while still maintaining adherence to the emissions requirements. And so, yeah, there's, there's a lot that goes on in ensuring that these standards, these fuels are adequate in the marketplace. It's kind of a chicken or an egg scenario. We need a little bit of data. So somebody's gotta be using these fuels already before we can bring that data, that research back to ASTM to help develop these standards. But we're trying to stay ahead of the industry as well to develop these standards so that they can be proliferated more and utilized more throughout the world.

Mark Rumizen (09:46):

Yeah. Relative to aviation, I think I mentioned when I, I first spoke that aviation is somewhat unique. And ironically, what drove the interest in alternative fuels back in the early two thousands was two factors. One was environmental, the idea of carbon emissions and their contribution to climate change. But the other driver was supply security, that relative to aviation, because of the military interest in aviation fuel, also there was concern about the stability of global petroleum supplies. So those two factors drove the interest in producing fuels from alternative raw materials, not petroleum. And, and the important thing to understand about aviation fuel is that these aren't alternative fuels is a misnomer. These aren't really different fuels or alternative fuels in aviation. Because one of the, the criteria that we gave ourselves or the cons, one of the constraints we gave ourselves was that these fuels had to be what we call drop in fuels.

(10:52):

Meaning they had to be essentially the same fuel chemically, performance wise, compositionally exactly the same fuel. But if you make 'em from different materials, on one hand, you can address the supply security issue. 'cause as Scott mentioned, fisher tropes fuel can be made from coal, which the US has abundant reserves. The environmental aspect of it is if you make it from renewable materials, the concept is that you are extracting as much carbon from the atmosphere as you're putting back in when you burn the fuel. So again, the important point is that with aviation, our alternative fuels or our, uh, sustainable fuels, whatever you wanna call 'em, are jet fuel. They're the same jet fuel that is made from petroleum, exactly the same end product. And we address those two drivers by making that same fuel from an alternative raw material. And so you satisfy the drivers for sustainability, which are huge in aviation because there's a lot of political and, um, general pushback from the public about aviation emissions.

(12:00):

So if you make these fuels from crops or materials that take carbon out of the atmosphere, uh, the company I work for air company, we have a technology that actually takes carbon dioxide outta the atmosphere, the gas and co combines it with hydrogen gas and converts it to a liquid jet fuel, the same jet fuel that was made from petroleum. But the idea is you took carbon dioxide outta the atmosphere to make that fuel. So again, aviation, uh, unlike Scott's comments about engine design and everything else, our focus is on a drop in fuel because there's 10 plus thousand big airliners out there. The capital tied up, the economic capital tied up in those airliners is, is enormous. And the design life of an airline is 30, airliner is 30 or 40 years. So it's, so the fleet's not gonna change that legacy fleet. So you need to make a fuel that fits that legacy fleet. You can't change the legacy fleet to operate on a new fuel. And that brings us back to what I said, drop in fuels. So that's why aviation is really unique. So when we talk about alternative fuels or sustainable fuels for aviation, the hardest thing to grasp is that if you put 'em in a beaker and analyze 'em, it would be exactly the same fuel.

Scott Fenwick (13:22):

And that's a great point, mark. And, and jp, one of the other things to consider is that, you know, when a STM when these committees meet and discuss these standards and, and changes and revisions, we're looking at certain aspects. And so we're talking about the sustainability and greenhouse gas reductions of some of these fuels. A STM has committees, you know, that are looking at that, but committee D two doesn't necessarily evaluate that we are are more performance driven. So as Mark said, it's very critical that these are drop-in fuels that can be used for the aviation industry be used in today's engines, today's fueling infrastructure and such. But when we do begin to evaluate these renewable and alternative fuels, some of them as components in the fuel may have additional benefits. Now it may or may not be sustainable, it may or may not provide additional lubricity to the fuel, it may reduce the sulfur content, which has an impact, again, on engine performance has an impact on the emissions as well. And so there are lots of ways that the committee and the industry is evaluating these fuels, although from a regulatory perspective, that word sustainability and, and, and greenhouse gas reductions that really is, is a regulatory issue and not necessarily performance related. So while that's in the back of our mind when we're talking about these fuels and these standards, it may not just be at the forefront when we are considering developing the standards themselves.

JP Ervin (15:06):

Great. And so I guess to follow up on that last point, what I wanted to ask is about how A STM is involved in this kind of emerging market, because it's, it's interesting with feel, from what I'm hearing from both of you, that there's a lot of history there, there's a lot of practices that are well established in the case. You know, mark, you mentioned that there's a giant fleet out there that you can't just recall tonight and switch over. So I was curious how A STM is looking at this field of all these emerging types of fuel dealing with various aspects of legacy technologies. And so how are you all looking at what's going on in the world and evaluating it in terms of deciding what is worth time for standards, what needs standards, you know, what, what stance should we take toward this and that, you know, example of a fuel?

Mark Rumizen (15:54):

Yeah. In aviation, currently, there are a lot of like national or political activities or regulatory activities to impose. In the case of Europe, there are carbon emission mandates. In the case of the US there are carbon emission incentives specifically for aviation fuel. So that is driving the activity to introduce new types of raw materials and methods to make these fuels. And what ASTM does is ASTM gathers the industry experts and with aviation fuels, there's really two stages to that. The first stage is that the engine and aircraft manufacturers who have the expertise and frankly the, the most, um, responsibility to ensure safety of their aircraft and their engines, they are the first stage of the review of any, we call 'em, pathways jet fuels that are made from new raw materials using new processing techniques. So the engine aircraft manufacturers are the first stage of the review process, and they, and it's a very, very in depth review where they're looking at all the properties and the composition of these fuels made from these new pathways.

(17:07):

And I can't emphasize enough how rigorous, disciplined and deliberate this process is to make sure that when these pathways are evaluated and when they finally come to ATM and we go through a balloting process and we create a specification that controls 'em to make sure that they're consistent with what was evaluated, that's what an ATM spec does when we create the spec that we're sure that this new synthetic aviation turbine fuel, which is what we call 'em, is gonna be just as safe and perform as well. Or as Scott even mentioned, perhaps a little better than conventional jet fuel. So, so a CM brings this community together to implement this very, very rigorous process that in fact, the aviation regulatory authorities like the FAA, which everybody is aware of, I think and IA in Europe, they are partners in this process, but they are primarily observers where they let the industry do this in depth evaluation because they're so confident in the processes that A STM has developed to control aviation fuel. So a very, very disciplined, rigorous process, and we ensure the fuel is safe at the end of it.

Scott Fenwick (18:21):

I would add that, you know, a s TM is, is well positioned to be the leader in global standards development because of the process that's involved. As Mark mentioned, the way we bring data to the table, we discuss it, we ballot it. If there's any dissension, we've gotta go back and consider that and bring back whatever might be needed to be more convincing. But I think the other thing to consider is, you know, any country throughout the world has the ability to set standards themselves. They have their own regulatory authorities, their own standards development groups. But in doing so, if they set a standard that may be overly restrictive, too tight, well then you're setting yourself up for a more expensive fuel that you may or may not be able to obtain. Now, I wanna make sure everybody understands from a technology perspective today, just about anything is possible, we can develop fuels that most people wouldn't even imagine could be used as a fuel.

(19:23):

The problem is you want to ensure that they are cost effective as well. Nobody wants to begin paying eight or $9 a gallon for gasoline tomorrow. And so we're always considering that as well. What is cost effective to implement? And so within a STM, this open consensus standardization process that we have, we invite people all over the world. And so committee D02 covering fuels routinely, you know, when they, we meet twice a year, is getting representatives from 40, 50, 60, 80 countries around the world that participate in this process. And so while it's easy for those of us in the US to think about the fuels we use and the fueling infrastructure that we're familiar with, you have to keep in mind that may or may not be the case in other countries around the world. And so we invite them and bring them into the process to talk about what they need, what they currently have, the issues they have, what works well, what doesn't, so that we can tailor these standards again, to be more performance related, to provide a benefit, whether you're not, you're in, in Southeast Asia, central Africa, you know, or the US and, and North America.

(20:44):

These standards are meant to be relevant for all because fuels are a globally traded commodity today. And we want them to be able to work in these engines, these applications all around the world, no matter what geography, no matter what season.

JP Ervin (21:01):

What do you both see as the potential upside of some of these emerging, renewable alternative, et cetera types of fuels? I'm gathering from talking to you both from learning about this topic, that there's a a lot of complex stuff that has to happen. Both, you know, you mentioned costs. Mark, you mentioned the process. There's also the political backdrop to some of this stuff. There's the consumer confidence backdrop. So I know it's gonna take a while, whatever happens, but what do you all see as the potential upside in changes that might come about from some of these technologies, whether that might be in five or 10 or 20 or however many years?

Scott Fenwick (21:37):

From my personal perspective, I think that the data we generate today, the confidence we generate today will help towards the next generation of fuels no matter what they might be. And so people are always looking ahead as we should have a, a three year outlook, a 10 year, maybe even a 50 or a hundred year outlook for where we need to be. The biggest issue I think we face today is that there aren't enough resources to completely replace petroleum fuels. We're just not there yet if we want to be cost competitive. And so doing what we can today to make the fuels better, to ensure performance is there while generating that next generation of data on fuels, whether or not those become components in today's fuels or they actually do become complete replacements, I think is yet to be seen. Certain applications may be quicker to adopt new fuels than others. And by that I mean we're looking at fuel standards for on-Road, those cars and trucks running up and down the interstates, off-road applications, whether those are ag or construction equipment, that kind of equipment may be slightly different. Railroads, locomotives, marine applications. And again, for marine, are we looking at blue water ships sailing across the ocean? Are we looking at tugs and ferries on the inland waterways? And ASTM is gonna continue to work to ensure that those are all meeting consumer needs?

Mark Rumizen (23:13):

Yeah, and I mentioned earlier about the two major drivers to look at alternative or synthetic jet fuels as being supply security and the environmental benefits. But in addition to those, the A HTM process has enabled or cause the aircraft and engine manufacturer fuel specialists to coalesce and come together in, in a much more productive manner than they had in the past. And because we now have this large group of virtually all engine aircraft manufacturers, and we're, we're doing in-depth studies of candidate fuels and existing fuels, we're developing a much deeper technology basis for understanding of the relationship between fuel composition, chemistry and performance of engines and airplanes. And this knowledge is gonna apply to even issues that might come up with conventional jet fuel. So we're developing this technological understanding, and it's really, really impressive the way it's involving now, if any question comes up with, uh, jet fuel, whether it's petroleum derive or synthetic, the group will get together and discuss it.

(24:25):

And, uh, this all started a result of the ATM process to bring everybody together and in the spirit of a collaborative or a consensus based process. The other thing I wanna mention about what makes aviation fuel unique is the global aspect of it. That an Airbus airplane or a Boeing airplane or an Embr airplane, wherever they take off from and wherever they land, they've gotta get the same fuel. Because as you can imagine, modern jet aircraft are extremely complex designs and they are designed around the fuel properties and composition that the ASTM spec drives a producer to. So globally, it has to be the same fuel.

JP Ervin (25:08):

So the last question I wanted to ask you both is, I, as a kid was obsessed with airplanes, with Ferraris. I had books with diagrams of Mustangs and F sixteens Top Gun came out at a very formative period in my life. So I wanted to ask you both how you got involved in this industry. 'cause if you went to 8-year-old me and told me that you, you might get to work with airplanes or cars and things like that, I I would've been very envious. So I was just curious to ask you both how you got involved with these industries and, and this kind of topic that you're pursuing with A SCM.

Mark Rumizen (25:42):

Well, like you said, it is kind of an interesting industry and outta college with an engineering degree, I went to work for Pratt and Whitney, which makes jet engines. So after a career at Pratt and Whitney and ge, which also makes jet engines, I went to the FAA and while the FAA, there was an opportunity to move into a job that covered aviation fuels. And, uh, again, it seemed like something interesting, something new to learn. And so I went with that job. And, um, to be honest with you, the first almost 10 years was actually kind of boring. 'cause as I said, aviation fuel has an outstanding safety record, and FAA is an aviation safety agency, and nobody there was really concerned with jet fuel. But then in the, as I said, in the early two thousands, all of a sudden I became a rock star because, uh, everybody wanted to know about jet fuel and how jet fuel was approved.

(26:39):

And the FAA played a key role in it. And that led to, to looking towards A SDM to leverage the processes they use all built around the specification to manage this introduction of these fuels made from different materials using different processes, these sustainable fuels, these alternative fuels, these synthetic fuels. And so I was kind of in the right place at the right time, and it's been, from a technical perspective, it's learning new things and it's a fascinating experience. And from the FAA, it led me to a company now, as I said, air company in New York City that's developing a fuel. And this is fascinating technology where they take CO2, think of it, CO2 and hydrogen gases run 'em through a reactor and out comes fuel components, fuel components that can be further refined and make jet fuel. So it's just, it's learning new things. It's fascinating. It's aviation, it's great. No, I'm not a pilot. No, I never got to fly any jet fighters, uh, although I was hoping for that. Uh, but I've been around airplanes now for my whole career and yes, it is fascinating.

Scott Fenwick (27:46):

Yeah, I, my career started as a, as a petroleum chemist. And so when somebody asked me today, you know what I do for a living? Tell 'em I'm a fuels chemist and, and technical director for clean fuels and their eyes before I can even get too much further, their eyes glaze over, roll in the back of their head and oh, nice. You know? Oh, great. You know, but when you begin to show 'em, you know, when you, when you take 'em out on the boats, you know, running up and down the Mississippi River and you show 'em that engine room or, or you take 'em into an underground mine, that big heavy duty mining equipment, you know, when they're standing next to a wheel, you know, and a tire that's, that's 12 feet tall, that gets 'em excited. Whether or not it's my grandkids or my colleagues and any ages in between, it's, it's hard not to get enthusiastic about seeing these big machines, whether or not it's, it's the airplanes, the locomotives, fast cars and trucks. Uh, again, it doesn't matter. It's, it's really easy to get enthusiastic about that, but none of 'em would be able to operate without quality fuels and the standards that ASTM brings to the table.

JP Ervin (29:00):

Well, mark and Scott, thanks so much for being here. I really enjoyed our conversation.

Scott Fenwick (29:03):

Thank

Mark Rumizen (29:04):

You. Yep. Thank you. I enjoyed it too.

JP Ervin (29:11):

Today talking to Melanie Tom, who is owner of Bayer Aerospace Consulting. We're gonna be talking about AGAs and some of the developments in the industry. So Melanie, to get started, could you give our listeners an overview of what AGAs is in the aviation industry segment that it's used in?

Melanie Thom (29:28):

So most of our listeners are probably familiar with gasoline. You put it in your, your car or your lawnmower. So aviation gasoline is the same concept. It differs from jet fuel, which would be on your flight to San Francisco, and that it is a more volatile material than jet fuel. Jet fuel is more like kerosene. So with those concepts in mind, AV gasses, just gasoline, it is interestingly enough, the last leaded transportation fuel. Uh, so that is what makes it interesting. It is used in a piston aircraft, uh, piston engine where the concept is you ignite it, it explodes, and it pushes a piston, which makes power in the engine.

JP Ervin (30:32):

Great. And so I think for people that aren't experts in the industry, they probably associate automobile gas and lawn mower gas, as you mentioned, and then they probably think of jumbo jets and Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, uh, military supersonic jets. So I, I was curious if you could talk about what types of use cases this, this field is used for. Like what types of vehicles, what, what jobs or roles are they performing?

Melanie Thom (30:54):

Sure. So as I said, uh, it's a, a fuel used in a piston engine, whereas the, the aircraft that you would see flying over your yard at 30,000 feet is a turbine engine. Uh, the difference is what the fuel has to do. Whereas a jet engine turns a turbine just like something you would see at, at the local dam, and it continuously runs an aviation gasoline, or any gasoline in a piston engine operates in, uh, a non-continuous way. Now in our industry, those aircraft are everything from a, a, a small one seat home-built aircraft with a tiny little propeller to something very, very large, like a DC three, which has a very large piston engine that has many cylinders. Some aircraft have one engine. A small aircraft may only need one engine. So it's a single engine aircraft to a multi-engine aircraft, which could have as many as four or eight piston engines.

(32:15):

So some people think when they think of a piston airplane or general aviation, a lot of people call it general aviation. They think it's just the rich doctor with this expensive airplane, you know, shooting her over to Martha's Vineyards on the weekend. But of those 220,000 aircraft out there, many of them are doing work. So it's everything from a news helicopter to a crop duster, to people flying pipelines and, and power line inspections, moving cargo. They provide transport. You go up to Alaska and there are no roads. So transport is done by everything from a small to a larger, uh, piston aircraft. And, uh, it is more than just recreation.

JP Ervin (33:16):

I next wanted to ask about standards and just kind of big picture Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> how they fit into the situation. So can you give us some examples of typical standards or types of standards that might be relevant to the industry we're talking about?

Melanie Thom (33:29):

So, A STM plays a very important role in our industry. Uh, they provide procedures and standards and specifications that cover everything from the fuel. So D nine 10 tells me I have aviation gasoline, and I know what that aviation gasoline is to the test methods that we use when, when we certify a fuel or come up with the, the certificate of conformance on that fuel. So when I want to look at it, I am going to run a, a distillation to, to an A STM standard. So that is the front end of what A STM standards do for us. I like to think of a STM as providing me a tool. They provide me a common ground, and they provide an explanation for everyone who ends up using, uh, D nine 10. Um, most people think that A STM tells me what my fuel has to be, it tells me how I have to test it, and d in reality, it, it is just a tool that then the people who do tell me what I have to do. So an organization like, like the Federal Aviation Administration, the FAA, they do tell me what I can and can't do, and then A STM becomes a set of tools that provides me this means of compliance.

JP Ervin (35:12):

Yeah, and I think what the last point you bring up is interesting because some industries A STM works with are not like this, but in the case of aviation, it's an example of a very heavily regulated industry that also has, uh, an organization like A STM that's developing consensus standards that, as you say, are tools. So I wanted to ask you about how the committee functions in relationship to the industry. And one of the things I've noticed is that there, there tends to be confusion about what A STM does with people who are kind of outside the standards world. And that's true of pretty much any committee when you talk about it. But people generally assume that we're certifying things. A lot of people ask me if ASTM is the same as OSHA or similar organizations, they assume we're passing laws and so on. So I was curious if you could talk a bit about the relationship of this committee in particular to the AGAs industry because it, it is kind of a unique case.

Melanie Thom (36:07):

I'd love to a s Tim is a very powerful tool for us in the context of being a tool. The important part of the A STM standards is that they provide us a very repeatable and stable documentation. It gives us this thing which we can use to contract with. We can write a contract and, and say, I'm going to buy to this standard. It allows me to purchase something. I can, you know, call up Exxon and say, I need to purchase fuel to D nine 10. And that's all we have to say. It holds in all of that information. It also provides me a tool with which I can defend myself. I purchased fuel to D nine 10, I have the certificate of conformance that they did all these A STM tests in general, getting an ASTM standard or, or test method is, is very hard to get. There's a lot of due diligence there. There's a lot of expectation that is wrapped into what A STM does for our, our industry. But once you have gone through that sometimes very painful process, now you have that standard and you're on the other side.

JP Ervin (37:33):

So I wanted to follow up on something you said at the beginning of our conversation, which is about lead. And so mm-hmm <affirmative>, I, I think one of the big discussions happening now about AVGAS has to do with unleaded aviation gasoline. I think this is also an interesting topic to ask you about because one of the things I've noticed, A STM does a lot of things related to lead in, for example, lead paint. And I think especially in the United States, there's an assumption that lead has vanished from our lives because of home inspections and things like that. But in this case, it's one of many cases where lead is still used. So I was curious if you could tell me kind of big picture about the role of lead in AGAs and then also what talk is happening in the industry right now about unleaded aviation, gasoline and other things like that.

Melanie Thom (38:21):

Sure. Interestingly enough, 100 low lead leaded aviation gasoline is the last transportation fuel used in the US that still contains lead. Even NASCAR has, has gotten rid of lead in their fuel. And to be perfectly honest, we as an industry would also love to get rid of lead. It's hazardous, it's expensive, it comes with a lot of regulations and tracking requirements. And in reality, our fuel 100 olad is a very small part of a very large industry's, uh, production. So our little bit of fuel with our lead is a real pain in the, you know, what for, for these large companies. But if it were easy, we would've gotten rid of it in the seventies the first time around, or we would've gotten rid of it in the nineties the next time around. It's not easy. So while everyone would love us included to get rid of lead, it is not something that, that you can do quickly because our industry is so old and has such long lives on its hardware, aviation, gasoline has a lot to do it, obviously it has to make power.

(39:50):

So you need something with a good energy density. Uh, you have to be able to cool the engine without making car buys. You have to be able to have, uh, the range you need. You have to worry about things like weight and balance. If we dramatically change what, what a load of fuel weighs, you dramatically change your weight and balance on an aircraft. It's more than just making something that works in an engine and doesn't detonate, which is not easy, don't get me wrong. But that's just the first step. And you're not starting from zero. Uh, we have 50 years of aircraft out there that we still take care of. So you have to worry about all the new builds. You have to worry about legacy aircraft, you have to worry about the orphaned airplanes that the companies are no longer out there. You have to worry about home builds.

(40:46):

It's 220,000 aircraft you have to worry about. And it's not just making the engine run, it's worrying about the hoses and the seals and the gaskets and the fuel cells and the sealants that are in the fuel cells fuel system itself. And you have to worry about the paint and the inks and the markings on all the parts. And it's interesting that in the aviation, you, you commented that we're a highly regulated industry and for good reason. 'cause you can't just pull off to the side of the road and call AAA with something bad happens. And it always happens in a place that's not good. But in our industry, if something bad does happen in general, our industry can track a part back all the way to, to an individual o-ring and it's lot. And part of that is because we keep very good records, but it's also because parts in the aircraft are marked.

(41:44):

So if we start trip stripping the ink off of parts, we, we've lost that, uh, access to knowledge. And then you have to think about all of the adhesives and the fabrics and the paints in a fabric aircraft, the fabric is actually structural. We think about, oh, we're just gonna strip that pretty paint job off that rich doctor's airplane. Well, if we've got a fabric airplane and we strip it the paint off or, or the adhesive, the wing is no longer a wing and now you have a rock and it doesn't stop there, then we have to worry about distribution. Uh, you know, if the coating on the inside of, of an above ground storage tank strips out all of that stuff that got stripped out ends up in a fuel filter on an aircraft, we worry about is it stable? Is it stable when it's stored in that above ground storage tank? Is it stable in a little tank at that small airport? Is it stable in a drum? Is it stable in the aircraft? Uh, does it stable, blended in the octane enhancer doesn't do anyone any good if it fell out and is sitting at the bottom of a storage tank in no Alaska. So, and all of this is done for an entire industry.

JP Ervin (43:00):

Well, I just had one last question I wanna ask you about. I, I am asking everyone that we're interviewing for this episode, one of the joys of my job is I get to talk to people in industries I dreamed of working in as a kid. And aviation is one of those major ones I was obsessed with aircraft.

Melanie Thom (43:16):

Silly

JP Ervin (43:16):

Boy. Thanks. I know, uh, <laugh>, but I, I wanted to ask how you got into this business because I think a lot of people might imagine you have a very fun job getting to work in the aerospace industry.

Melanie Thom (43:29):

Sure. So I'm an analytical chemist, uh, by training, by trade, and by avocation. I actually started in, uh, tires <laugh>. I designed sidewalls and tires and, uh, a job opportunity opened up with what was then Allied Signal Bendix. And I discovered working in fuel and I very much like making airplanes go and, and stop a whole nother part of my life, but I actually fell into aviation sort of by accident. So I've never looked back.

JP Ervin (44:15):

Melanie, Tom, thanks so much for joining us on this episode. It's been great talking to you.

Melanie Thom (44:21):

Thank you for having me.

Dave Walsh (44:23):

If you wanna learn more about any of the standards discussed in this episode, visit astm.org for all the latest. And if you enjoyed the show, remember to like and subscribe so you never miss an episode. I'm Dave Walsh, and this has been Standards Impact presented by A STM International.