Standards Impact

Taking to the Skies: Drone Standards

• ASTM International • Season 3 • Episode 1

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Search and rescue. Monitoring wildfires. Package delivery. Learn about the growing list of ways drones impact our daily lives and the standards that support them on the first episode of season three of Standards Impact.

Join host Dave Walsh as he speaks with Mark Blanks, chair of ASTM's Committee F38 on Unmanned Aircraft Systems (UAS) and head of Global Flight Operations at Wing, along with Phil Kenul, Rear Admiral (retired) and vice chair of F38.

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Presented by ASTM International


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Dave Walsh (00:12):

Welcome to Standards Impact ASTMs Official podcast. Unmanned aircraft systems or drones have been big news recently due to a rash of sightings in the northeast United States. But in reality, drones are big news because of the enormous impact the field is having on human society. From product delivery to humanitarian search and rescue to potentially faster and more efficient, commuter flights, unmanned aircraft systems are changing the world we live in. I'm your host, Dave Walsh, editor-in-Chief of Standardization News, and I'm joined today by two leading experts in the field of UAS Phil Kennel, chair of ASTM's Committee on unmanned Aircraft Systems F38 and retired Rear Admiral with the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. And Mark Blanks, head of Global Flight Operations with Wing and a member of F 38 as well. Mark and Phil, thanks for being with us today.

Mark Blanks (00:58):

Thanks for welcoming us. Great to be here, Dave. Thank you.

Dave Walsh (01:01):

So, as most of us are aware, just to start off with a question that's, uh, kind of based in the news cycle, drones have been making headlines recently with numerous sightings in New Jersey, New York, and around the northeast. I'm sure our listeners have seen it on the news, read about it on the internet, and Phil had some thoughts on this. So why have these drones been so difficult to track and and are there standards that would help us track them? Maybe the remote ID standard for instance? Just what are your thoughts in general on that?

Phil Kenul (01:27):

Yeah, there's been a lot of sightings of drones in the northeast lately, and a lot of these have been actual drones flying at night. And quite possibly a lot of these have been flying legally. We do have remote id, which is now a regulation or requirement for all drones flying in the United States. And A SDM did develop the standard for remote identification. However, the implementation may not have been as good as it could have been. We had also identified the fact that we recommended network remote ID to be implemented as well. And there also needs to be a better education program for the public and law enforcement officials on how to identify these drones. The way the standard was written, that you could have a app on your phone or a receiver that could receive this digital license plate signal that was being broadcast. And I don't think the rollout was conducted very well by the authorities.

(02:20):

So a lot of people didn't know that you could identify them using an app on your phone. And had that been well documented and well distributed to the public and law enforcement officials, a lot of these sightings may have been easily resolved. The other issue was there need to be a data backbone for these drones as well for that data, for those digital license plates, so they can be traced back by the authorities to the operators. So in short, I think a lot of these could have been legitimate and legal drones flying in the airspace, they just weren't able to be identified.

Dave Walsh (02:52):

So between the legal drones in the air and maybe some copycats that wanted to get in on the phone, you're saying this is not the war of the world's coming to our country here?

Phil Kenul (03:01):

No. Most of those sightings that we're seeing were were actually drones flying legally. Some of them were probably commercial airplanes or general aviation aircraft that were misidentified.

Dave Walsh (03:12):

So the real term for drones in the field is unmanned aircraft systems or UAS. So getting back to the topic at hand, which is this field in general and some of the trends and issues we're seeing, what would you say are some of the biggest issues that need to be tackled in the field right now? B-V-L-O-S is a big issue beyond visual line of sight, as is remote ID and digital tracking of drones. So what would you say if someone asked you what the most important issue is right now?

Mark Blanks (03:39):

Yeah, I think if you look over the past several years, in fact maybe over the past decade we've seen a tremendous amount of advancement in commercial operations. You know, in 2016, the FA released rulemaking for commercial operations of drones called Part 1 0 7. And since that time, so we were what now nine years later, industry has really matured dramatically across all kinds of different use cases. And I think what we're seeing now is we don't as much need breakthroughs in technology. Like the technology is, the breakthroughs are happening because industry is inventing and trying out new things and building new things constantly. You know, they're finding new ways to tackle old problems and new ways to address new problems. Uh, so I don't think that there's any one big issue, especially on the technology side. I think the harder thing actually has been, uh, clear rulemaking for the phases beyond part 1 0 7.

(04:28):

So part 1 0 7 was for visual line of sight only. So where you could see the drone couldn't go beyond that. And if you want to go beyond it, you've gotta have a waiver or an exemption, and that's all done on a case by case basis. So I think the biggest issue that needs to be tackled is clear rulemaking for that beyond line of sight operation, not the technology to enable it. That all exists and it's proven by those waivers and exemptions, but the actual regulatory framework to build it. So we are patiently waiting for, uh, the FA to release a new rule making called Part 1 0 8, uh, which would enable that clarity of scale to do drone operations, long distance widespread across the country. So I think that's the biggest issue. And there's a lot of pieces that will flow out from that, which I'm sure we'll talk about in featured conversations here.

Phil Kenul (05:15):

You know, I'd have to agree with Mark on, uh, beyond visual line of sight being one of the biggest issues facing the industry, it's kind of the holy grail of commercialization and uh, I think the industry needs good regulations and the standard organizations like A STM need regulations that we can build standards to. Um, there'll be no successful commercial activities unless the beyond visual line of site issues are addressed and the sooner the better.

Dave Walsh (05:42):

So we touched on a few issues there, and we talked about B-V-L-O-S and, and remote id and specifically the B-B-L-O-S functionality is there, but it's, it's more like regulating it and getting that under wraps. But what are some of the newer and more cutting edge technologies maybe that people don't read about and that may not be in the news as much. What are some of the things that are coming to the field that may need standards in the future? What, what kind of high tech things might we see?

Mark Blanks (06:06):

I'll take a stab first. So there's a couple that come to mind quickly. There's, uh, there's a lot of new like drone in the box type activities that are happening. You're seeing aircraft that are stored in some kind of environmentally controlled, uh, area that is charging them. And then that opens up automatically and aircraft fly away and do all kinds of amazing things. The company that I work with, we do a lot of drone delivery. And so common to both of those elements is automation and autonomy. So what we would like to call highly automated systems, it's probably like, it's, it's a, both a nebulous term, but at the same time a key piece of what will make, uh, drone activity and drone commercial operations scalable and cost effective and beneficial for the common public. Because now as you automate more and more things, you're able to bring, uh, more services to more people, uh, be it power line inspection or package delivery or whatnot.

(06:58):

So the big question though is like how do we deal with that? When, when it comes to standardization, uh, when it's a topic is big and broad is automation and autonomy. That can be a, a hard thing to standardize. It's like saying, I'm going to, you know, standardize the way that water moves <laugh>. There's lots of different ways that water moves. So really the focus from my perspective is that we should look at where, how can we standardize the outcomes of automation. We can't standardize automation itself 'cause there's so many different ways to address the topic at hands, but we might need to standardize the kind of expected behavior that automation does, the way that the system acts or the safe outcomes that come from it and approaches to make sure that those do happen through various means of getting there. So for me, I think the core cutting edge technology is automation. It does require a very unique approach of not trying to define how, but more the what is the, the takeaway and the outcome. It just so happens that ASTMs processes are set up pretty well, I think for us to discover this and discuss and debate and come to a consensus with the industry of how best to approach that by hearing all the voices in the room.

Dave Walsh (08:04):

And just before you go, Phil, I wanted to follow up Mark, because you mentioned delivery as a function of UAS and autonomy. That's something that we're all seeing in the real world every day, the idea of drone delivery of goods and products and things like that. Why haven't we seen more of it though? What are the obstacles to that? Because we've been hearing about it for a few years and, and I expect Amazon to drop off a package in my driveway now by drone and that's not happening as much as I thought it would.

Mark Blanks (08:28):

Yeah, it's a great question. I mean it's, it's been a matter of scale to be quite honest there. Rulemaking and scale. We've been operating in my local area, which is in Christiansburg, Virginia for about four years, five years now doing drone delivery. That's a smaller market. Uh, but the past two or three years we've really been focused in the Dallas Fort Worth area. So if you live in the Dallas-Fort Worth area, there's a better chance than not that we actually, there is drone delivery available to you from some provider. There's several providers operating there. And I think if you look at the past that the big change is, uh, it was very niche and very might be show up in one pocket of one metro. Now it's starting to happen across entire metros. And then it becomes a matter of the scaling of the rulemaking and the ability to do environmental assessments and all these other steps at scale across other metros. And so I think quite frankly, many of those barriers have lowered or dropped. And you're gonna see more and more of this over the next couple of years. It's not something 10 years from now it is, it's happening now.

Dave Walsh (09:24):

Phil, what are some of the cutting edge technologies you see that are on the way?

Phil Kenul (09:28):

Well, well I just wanted to follow up in foot stomp on something that Mark said about, you know, autonomy and aviation and um, you know, drones becoming increasingly more autonomous, getting advanced, uh, AI machine learning capabilities and that allows for better decision making. Um, but it, when he was talking about outcomes, I think we also have to talk about the performance based standards that we're working on at A STM. And we just have to ensure that these systems operate safely and predictably with clear requirements and then clear standards. And the standards we're doing at A STM are, are pretty much performance based and that's really supporting the industry as a whole. Another thing that, it may not be a specific technology involved, but there's a lot of technology to support this, is that to become more commercially viable and something that a lot of the, a lot of the drone delivery companies are doing now.

(10:15):

It's just not one pilot to one aircraft, it's one to many and there's a lot of technology and autonomy that goes into that to support that type of an operation. So swarming operations, multiple aircraft operations, having one pilot to many aircraft in the flight at the same time is really something that's gonna need specific standards and a change in thinking as well of what a pilot is and what an operator does. I mean, we're looking at redefining those things now at A STM as well. I might also add that as we have more and more flights and more and more flight time, we're gonna need better energy sources. So battery advanced propulsive systems are one of the technologies that a lot of people are gonna be looking at now and in the future as well.

Dave Walsh (10:59):

And you mentioned what is a pilot and defining a pilot. Is that, is that an issue that you're seeing in terms of complying with regulations? If you have a highly trained army veteran flying an airplane, everybody knows that's a pilot, but if it's a, a person maybe in their office with a joystick, is that something that's an issue that you see?

Phil Kenul (11:16):

I'm gonna let Mark handle this one 'cause he is an expert in this area.

Mark Blanks (11:20):

I don't think it's more a question about is someone a pilot or not a pilot based on their credentials. It's more the, the what are the functions and tasks that that person that is controlling the system is performing. Where we get bogged down as a lot of the rulemaking and recs for the past have been written with the assumption that there is a human sitting in a cockpit or in a chair manually controlling the exact configuration of the aircraft, what the control services are doing, where it's flying, is it turning left, going up and down, going right, et cetera. And now most of that basic functionality is being done through an autopilot or an automated system. Uh, we've gotten to the point where, you know, now the pilot's role is not so much to tell the aircraft what to do, but to assess the entire environment as a whole.

(12:01):

You know, what are the factors that might impact the 10 aircraft that I have in the air or the a hundred aircraft that I have in the air. And it's because of this automation. We talked about that already, that has, uh, enabled the, the pilot to become more of like a supervisor or an overseer of the operation and ensure the safety of the operation Yes. But not interact in the same way. And then that's when some of the, the terminology of pilot can become challenging with the assumptions that it carries with it. Uh, but there's still is someone that is responsible and I wanna keep reinforce that there's still someone responsible for the outcomes of those flights and we expect that there always will be. It's just that role and the skillset that they have and the functions they perform may be different.

Dave Walsh (12:42):

Yeah. Well that actually segues well into the next question I have because when many people think of drones in UAS, they think of hobbyists in the backyard or they think of the people who are flying their drones at night to get on television as we discussed. But what are some of those critical applications of drone technology in the world today that are, that are really helping society? And and the reason I say it connects to the previous question is because you mentioned drone pilots and controlling multiple aircraft, and I instantly think of the military and how that saves human life. Instead of having a pilot go into a dangerous area, you can have an operator in a safe bunker somewhere. That's just one example. But I'm sure the two of you have a bunch of other examples, you know, search and rescue, anything like that. Where does that take your mind, Phil?

Phil Kenul (13:22):

Sure, sure. You know, we, we think of the dull, dirty and dangerous operations that pilots used to do. Well, I used to fly into hurricanes when I was working at NOAA and uh, we started looking at putting drones in the storms instead of putting manned aircraft. Now we're not that yet there yet, but we're actually launching drones from NOAA aircraft inside of hurricanes. But other applications are agricultural crop dusting. Crop dusters have a high fatality rate for pilots. And if you could do that with agricultural drones, you would be having much safer operations without having putting a pilot in danger. Search and rescue is another one. It's, uh, using drones for search and rescue operations. That is one of the areas that drones are being used for environmental monitoring as well. As well as some of the work that's being done with, uh, forest fires is monitoring forest fires with drones instead of manned aircraft. And then infrastructure inspections, linear infrastructure, power line infrastructure inspections, pipeline infrastructures, as well as the stuff that Mark talked about with logistics and delivery that's very common now, especially works being done in North Dallas. And Mark, I know you've got a lot of examples as well you might want to add.

Mark Blanks (14:37):

Yeah, I mean, uh, look, there's untold number of use cases for drones. You know, the, the real question to me is like, who cares? Why does it matter? Uh, you know, package delivery is, gets a lot of attention because it's a, it's a pretty visible interaction between me as a member of the public and aviation and drones that this never happened before. But there's so many of these other use cases that, that Phil talked to. And I think of like infrastructure inspection, you're probably not gonna see those operations probably never, but you're gonna feel them because you're gonna feel them 'cause your power went out and now it's coming back on more quickly than it did before. Or it doesn't go out at all because the potential encroachment of trees earlier used in drones or, you know, you have, uh, insurance damage or damage that you need an insurance claim for, but there's, everybody's had damage, think of a hurricane, but you're able to get quicker assessments to your insurance company of the damage that's been done.

(15:26):

So I think some of the, like the values of drones will actually, you'll never see it. It's, it'll be happening because you're going to realize that the services and goods you're receiving from the commodity of the power and electricity to your house is now much more reliable than it was before. And that's a byproduct of a lot of hard work from people, a lot of linemen and other things. But there's also a component of this, which is the technology of drones that are coming. I would say there's endless use cases and you're not gonna see them all, but you're gonna feel the many, many of them in positive enhancements.

Phil Kenul (15:55):

Right. And those use cases that we mentioned are already being implemented now. So agriculture, search and rescue, environmental monitoring, infrastructure inspections, those are some of the, the use cases now that are being done that you just don't see in the news. The big news is always, as Mark said, package delivery. 'cause people see it at their doorstep.

Dave Walsh (16:16):

That's really interesting when you say that we won't see the benefit. And all I can think of in my mind is that power line inspection you mentioned Phil because there was a, and it's incredibly rare, but I did hear about a crash, uh, in the last few years, uh, while lines were being inspected with a helicopter. You'll simply not hear about that crash in the future, so you'll assume all as well, but it will be due to drones, I would assume.

Phil Kenul (16:36):

Yep. And same thing, they do railroad inspections now with drones as well. They expect the railroad lines to make sure that they're safe and secure and not damaged. And that's being done by BNSF even as we speak.

Mark Blanks (16:48):

And I actually, I've lost power at my house for three days during an ice storm a couple weeks ago, and there were outages everywhere and half the time just to figure out what the cause of that problem is. And I think drones will definitely help figure that out more quickly and get service back to those situations, uh, much faster. So value is gonna be quite ubiquitous in my, in my opinion, uh, you just may not always be a drone providing that value.

Phil Kenul (17:11):

Yeah. And, and one example of environmental monitoring, one of the earliest drones that was developed was developed for marine monitoring, for monitoring marine mammals, whales and wildlife out in the marine environment. And now those drones are, are being used for just about everything else.

Dave Walsh (17:27):

Well, you know, the two of you are, are members of the committee on unmanned aerial systems here at A STM, and that's committee F 38 of course. And all of the technologies we're talking about and all of the, the developments that are coming in the future will need standards in some way to either make them safer or streamline their development. So maybe, you know, since this is a an A STM podcast, uh, maybe you could talk about some of the work going on in your committee, some of the standards that are either in development or that will be needed in the future to make everything we've been talking about possible.

Phil Kenul (17:55):

Sure. So in the committee, we break it down into four subcommittees. We have a subcommittee for airworthiness, a subcommittee for operations, subcommittee for personnel, and a subcommittee for infrastructure. Really the airworthiness is hardware and software oriented operations is procedure oriented. The personnel, that's personnel, certification and training and infrastructure. Where are you gonna put all this stuff? How are you gonna fly all this stuff when you get it certified and and designed to a specific standard? So some of the best work that we've done is in design criteria of these systems as well. Also, UTM that is UAS traffic management is one key area that we're working on that we've been very successful with, as well as generally all of our UAS performance specifications, performance standards, and our operational standards to support safety guidelines. So that's just a broad overview of the standards we're working on. But we have detect and avoid standards, we have training standards, we have, uh, as I mentioned, um, UTM or airspace standards. And we've also now starting to work on verti port design standards for urban air mobility aircraft. So these are just a few of the highlighted area, but one of the key areas that we're focusing on now, which I want Mark to talk about, is all the work that we're doing in support of beyond visual line of site standards for the fa a's upcoming part 1 0 8 regulation.

Mark Blanks (19:22):

Thanks, Phil. Appreciate it. As, as Phil, we've got standards in a lot of different topic areas. Um, one of the more interesting parts we have going on is that not just the FA but the FA largely along with some other regulators, have been really pushing for increased standardization for what we call airworthiness for how you design, build, and produce an aircraft system. And it is truly a system. It's not just the airplane flying around, it's also the elements that are on the ground and the things that talk between them. And so we've had standards for years in these areas. In fact, uh, the committee's been around since 2003, which is just mind blowing to me. We're over 20 years in existence now and we've produced some wonderful standards on the design and producing and verifying aircraft. Now we are really trying to revise and update those based on the latest and greatest technology, the latest understanding of regulatory context and you know, what the best practices are that people are finding in the real world through these case by case approvals that the a has been doing and other regulators have been doing around the globe.

(20:19):

And so, uh, right now we've, we've got kicked off, uh, I don't know how many <laugh> quite honestly, uh, quite a few new, uh, revisions or new standards to update and modernize the work of the committee and, uh, to enable that new beyond live site rulemaking. So one of the, the more interesting things here about the F 38 committee is that the technology is so unique and so novel that oftentimes the regulators are not the experts and they don't really know how to address a lot of the topic areas. The government regulators around the world are coming looking for work. Where can I understand the best practices and the, the way that a system should be built and designed because I don't understand it. And the industry really brings that with the standards body and with F 38. And so I think we were really filling a need of explaining what this should look like and even educating, uh, and providing the, the kind of technical documentation that enables drone technology to be widespread around the world. So it's a pretty fascinating and developing time for the standards world.

Dave Walsh (21:17):

We've been talking about a lot of the technologies that are being developed today and some of the issues that we face and the standards that might address them, but there must be more futuristic developments on the way in the future. And so my question is, where do you see the UAS field in the next 20 or 30 years? What developments will we see? What policies and standards might be needed? You know, I remember years ago people really couldn't envision beyond line of sight, you know, it was when that drone went around the corner, what happens now? Uh oh. And, and now it's, it's reality. They can do almost anything with the drone, you know, whether it's in the military or inspection fields. So what kinds of things will we see in the next 20 or 30 years that people think might be science fiction right now,

Phil Kenul (21:57):

Getting away from the science fiction part, I think we're gonna see widespread BV loss operations that is a must for the successful commercialization of the industry. So it's gonna take a lot of work and A STM is leading a lot of that effort now with the standards for beyond visual line of sight. I also think we're gonna need to have, and we will see integration into the national airspace instead of separate UTM airspace or urban air mobility airspace. I think we're gonna have to see integration into the national airspace as drones become more integral part of airspace operations, they're gonna need to coexist with man aircraft. We're gonna need to see that happen and standards will evolve to ensure the safe coordinated flights between all those types of vehicles. And then urban air mobility, which folks are talking about now, the air taxi service gets you from your home to the airport, beat all the traffic.

(22:49):

I think in the next 20 to 30 years, you'll see that become a reality. I don't think it's gonna happen in the next five years, but I think it's gonna take a little bit while for drones to eventually evolve into passenger carrying or air taxis. And then I think we're gonna have to see harmonization global regulations as well to see all this work. Well, one of the tough parts about developing standards is that each regulator may have a different approach to what they want to see. And I think it'd be best to have, uh, globally harmonized regulations so we can have globally harmonized standardization as well for these aircraft.

Mark Blanks (23:23):

Yeah, so I don't, I don't even know where to start because if I, if I could predict the future 20 or 32 years from now, I would be investing quite heavily in that. There's no telling what the technology will bring. What I do see happening is some of what we've touched on more, this being the norm, the commoditization of drones where the services then goods that they provide are just normal. Like, this is not novel. There's nobody looking up going, oh wow, there's a drone flying. It's a normal activity that brings great value to our lives. So I think it could be all kinds of different situations when you need goods on demand, you know, boom, it's there. That's just normal. It's taking for granted the improve production and efficiency of many different industries. We've talked a little bit about agriculture and energy and transportation, that's part of the norm.

(24:03):

It'll be like the concrete committee, we're talking about concrete, we're talking about drones, you know, it's, it's the, the very normal and common thing. And then I, I think Phil was, was spot on that, you know, as these aircraft and the technologies from a completely unoccupied aircraft grow into human carrying, uh, aircraft, that's would be a different use case, a different risk profile. We'll see how that normalizes out over the future. But I, I definitely think it's possible to have fully automated systems flying people around and picking up people from, uh, search and rescue. You never know where it will go. Uh, but I think it will be the norm. I hope 30 years we're not having the same conversations we're having now. Lemme put it that way.

Phil Kenul (24:39):

Yeah, yeah. If you ask me five to 10 years, I couldn't, I couldn't tell you, but 10 to 20 years, I, I think we've got a shot at making this successful.

Dave Walsh (24:48):

Well, yeah, and you know, Phil, you specifically mentioned, uh, the role of A STM in this whole field and how the development of those standards is going to be critical. So I usually ask our guests, you know, and, and you're a perfect person to answer this, how important do you think A STM is to the development of all of these standards and specifically ASTMs process I should say, in terms of facilitating these standards in a timely manner, you know, getting them through approvals, getting all the stakeholders together. Uh, how important is that A STM process?

Phil Kenul (25:15):

Oh, I think we've got 125 years of experience in developing the process at A STM. And, um, I, I think we've got a good process. It's industry consensus standards, industry develops the standards, decides what goes into them. And um, we've got a very structured format for developing those standards. I think A STM is set up right for these emerging technologies. I think we've proven it time and time again through our entire aviation portfolio, not just the UAS portfolio, but lights, board aircraft, general aviation, aircraft aviation systems as well as well as commercial space and aviation personnel. So we've got a lot of experience and we've got the right people working on it at at a s TM and F 38. We just don't have a few experts. We have hundreds of subject matter experts providing the input to these standards.

Mark Blanks (26:06):

So I got involved with A STM through F 37, which is the light support aircraft committee back in the mid two thousands. Uh, it was my first exposure to the industry consensus standards process. I was at the time working for a, a white support aircraft manufacturer. And I watched the process of pulling those standards together and building aircraft to meet them and getting those approved by the FAA and selling those and watched them do great things. And when I first got into the drone industry was about 2009, the very first thing that crossed my mind was, as team is the only way we're gonna be able to solve some of these technical challenges. And so I immediately signed up for F 38, uh, and I've kind of ever since then, <laugh>, I've been in F 38 at some kind of subcommittee chair level or task group lead or chair of the committee because I think a team M is the only place that has the ability to adapt, especially for the, the smaller aircraft that are moving very quickly as team's process can adapt to the technology and to the changing environments quicker without losing the voice of the small companies, the small individual operator, you know, everybody has an equal voice if it's, uh, the biggest company in the world or the, or a single individual.

(27:12):

And the process really brings us all together in the same room on equal footing and allows us to have some really hard conversations. And not everybody's going to agree, like period, not everybody is gonna agree, but there's a clear process for how you get a product at the end of the day that is a consensus of at least the majority of the group that can move the industry forward. So I'd say come and see, come and participate and we'd love to have every voice available.

Phil Kenul (27:36):

And one thing I might add, we're very structured, the process is structured, but it's also nimble at the same time. And it allows us to move at, I mean these emerging technologies are changing fast and that's one of the things that we offer. We keep moving with the technology.

Dave Walsh (27:51):

So I think both of you have touched on, uh, you know, maybe some of what you would answer to my next question, um, which I ask of all of our guests, the next generation of members is always on the minds of people at A STM and getting student members interested and early career professionals interested in A STM. So what would the two of you say to a student or an early career professional considering joining A STM and possibly becoming part of F 38 specifically? Would you say it's worth their time? Would you advise them to get involved?

Phil Kenul (28:17):

I think it's an exciting time to get involved and joining A STM allows you to work alongside industry experts, contribute to the development of critical standards and, and also be part of that community that's doing it. And it's a great network opportunity for young professionals just starting off in their career. As a matter of fact, A SDM does have a young professional program and F 38 has sponsored a few of those young professionals as well. So if anybody's passionate about technology regulation policy or standards, there's definitely a place for them in A SDM and F 38 in this emerging industry.

Mark Blanks (28:52):

Yeah, I would agree with all of that. I would just add for a student or an early career professional, don't underestimate the value that you bring to the conversation. A lot of times we feel like we need to be the world's expert in a topic, but sometimes it's the person coming in going that doesn't make sense, <laugh>, that helps, uh, bring the rest of us that have been doing this for too long out of our midst of confusion, <laugh> into something that's simpler and easier to contribute. And I actually come from a background working in academia where I had students that would join a STM and uh, some of those students went on to become task group leads, you know, pretty quickly earlier in their career or co-leads with other folks. So there's absolutely a contribution they bring to the group as well as a good place to network and as well as a good place to, to be mentored by other professionals. And someday they'll be one of those experienced professionals mentoring other students, you know, so like this cycle only works if it truly is a cycle. We need, uh, the new young, fresh perspectives and we need the, the experts, uh, that have been doing this for 20 years as well. And they all matter. So I would definitely encourage anyone, uh, interested, get involved and reach out to us. Happy to walk 'em through the process.

Dave Walsh (29:57):

Well, we're kind of drawing to the end of our time here, but I did have, uh, you know, one final question and and maybe we could leave our listeners with this, and I do, I should note this is such a broad field that this is a more difficult question than usual, but what's one final thing that, that you would like to leave listeners with, uh, as we close out this podcast? What's one thought, one fact? You know, you could stress drones, save lives if you were a search and rescue person, or drones will make your business more profitable if you're in the delivery business. What's one fact or tidbit you'd like to leave people with?

Phil Kenul (30:29):

I got one. It's, we're definitely not done yet. There's just a ton more work. I still think we're a little bit past the ground floor in this industry, but it's starting to take off and there's a whole lot more to do, whether it's integration in the national airspace or operations. And I think with aircraft becoming much more autonomous in the future, UAS are gonna be in the leading forefront of that as well.

Mark Blanks (30:54):

Mine's not too different from Phil. I would say that people don't realize that so much of this is actually ongoing now, that this is not the future. There is a lot more work to do, a lot's happening now, but what we really need, we, we need the people that are doing the real work in the conversation. 'cause like right now is a formative period where we can define the future. Like literally basically write it down in a standard and there's a lot of great activity and operations and aircraft building going on. So it's an exciting time and it's also an opportunity to make sure your voice is heard, especially from the ground up the industry up to the regulators and to the users of our systems more broadly. So couldn't be a more exciting time, in my opinion in the drone industry.

Dave Walsh (31:35):

Yeah. Well I think we could probably talk for another hour or two on this topic, but I think we have reached the end of our time today. I love these topics that are more accessible to lay people. You know, ASTM works on a lot of heavy technical standards and there are heavy technical standards involved with the UAS field, but the drone idea is, uh, popular in people's imagination. So Phil and Mark, thank you for being with us today. We really appreciate your time.

Phil Kenul (31:58):

Thanks Dave. Happy to support the effort.

Dave Walsh (32:03):

If you wanna learn more about any of the standards discussed in this episode, visit astm.org for all the latest. And if you enjoyed the show, remember to like and subscribe so you never miss an episode. I'm Dave Walsh and this has been Standards Impact presented by ASTM International.