Standards Impact

These Boots Are Made with Standards

• ASTM International • Season 3 • Episode 2

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Specialty work boots. High heels. 3D printed shoes. Learn about the many ways ASTM standards help put your best foot forward. 

Join host Dave Walsh and guests Matt Piotrowski of Timberland and Eric Olson of Precision Testing Laboratories as they discuss standards for — and the future of — footwear.

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Presented by ASTM International


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Dave Walsh (00:12):

Welcome to Standards Impact ASTM's official podcast. It's inescapable. Everyone wears shoes and not just to go to the store or take a run on the track. Specialized footwear is needed in factories for outdoor utility work and for activities and environments with extreme heat or cold and testing to ensure these various types of footwear are up to their intended purpose, requires robust and rigorous standards. I'm your host, Dave Walsh, Editor-in-Chief of Standardization News, and I'm joined today by two leading experts in the field of footwear. Matt Pietrowski, global Senior Manager of Product engineering with Timberland and Vice chair of the Committee on Pedestrian Walkway Safety and Footwear F13, and Eric Olson, president of Precision Testing Laboratories and also a member of F13. So let's start with the biggest footwear related issue in recent times, and this occurred in the Super Bowl when Eagles quarterback Jalen Hertz warmed up in Air Jordan cleats, which as everyone knows, I assume, violates the NFL's policy on wearing cleats that match your team's uniform colors. So Eric, what do you think should the NFL find him for this?

Eric Olson (01:12):

I did read an article about this and um, I go back to when they, they find Michael Jordan originally, you know, almost 40 years ago for wearing Nike shoes. And Nike ended up paying the fine for him anyway. I look at it as just like a PR stunt. That's probably the cheapest marketing they get, but being part of ASTM and being a testing lab, we have to stay in in the rules. We can't have this chaos. So, yeah, I think he should be fine for it, but I'm sure Nike's gonna pick up the tab.

Dave Walsh (01:38):

I agree. We need standards and uniforms, but at the same time, yeah, it was pure pr. Absolutely. I should also divulge that I'm a New York sports fan, so I really didn't feel bad about, uh, something happening to the Eagles like that

Eric Olson (01:48):

Rough year. Rough year <laugh>.

Dave Walsh (01:50):

Yeah, well it was, it was rough. Alright, well what we're here to talk about today is actually footwear standards and the issues that surround them and safety and everything else that goes into it. So one of the main issues that we hear about a lot in the, in the field of footwear is traction and slip and falls. We all know what it's like to slip and fall, particularly when conditions are icy or snowy as they are here in much of the US right now. And the issue of walkway safety and footwear attraction is always a big one for your committee. What role can footwear standards play in making life safer in this regard? And I'll throw it out to either one of you who wants to answer it.

Matt Piotrowski (02:25):

Do you you want me to take this one, Eric?

Eric Olson (02:26):

Sure. Matt, go ahead.

Matt Piotrowski (02:27):

All right, here we go. This topic is really important to not just the footwear committee F 1330, but to the overall F 13 committee on traction and, and pedestrian and walkways. So this is a topic of discussion, I think at every, every meeting I've attended. So back in 2011 is when the committee first published F 29 13. And that was our test method on how to test finished whole footwear in a biomechanical way, um, so that it mimics when slips occur either at heel strike or toe off. And we've been using that, that test method for about a decade. And behind the scenes we were working on a performance requirement. So back in 2021, we, we finally published F 3 4 4 5, which was our first attempt to publish a, a minimum coefficient of friction requirement for footwear and dry and wet conditions, um, on quarry tile. And then, and then back in 2024, we added onto it, you know, again, targeting, uh, the restaurant industry, hospitality, things like that where they might encounter oily, wet contaminants. We added a requirement, another minimum coefficient of friction for that as well. And then Eric, I don't know if you wanna touch on the cold weather task group that the committee just created as well.

Eric Olson (03:50):

Yeah, I think so to Matt's point, you know, we've, we've come up with these test methods and then not only that, but come up with performance requirements for pass fail to wear. Uh, a footwear manufacturer can label their shoes and let the consumers know this has been tested for slip resistance and passed. So I think that's the basis of it. And then, you know, as you mentioned, the icy and snowy, uh, conditions are always a factor and we're, we've formed a task group to come up with a method to have performance requirements on that. As you can imagine, it's hard to mimic icy and snowy conditions in a laboratory. So that's what the task group is tasked with. And footwear changes when it gets cold. I mean, Matt, you, you know this from just the durometer hardness changing on the treads of footwear and how if it gets harder is much easier to slip. And so I think that we're heading in the right direction, but I'm not sure where we're gonna get there.

Dave Walsh (04:45):

Always takes time. You both mentioned the test for slip resistance, and I'm trying to picture as a lay person what that must look like. What, what does that test involve? Does it have someone standing on an icy floor or something like that?

Eric Olson (04:57):

No, it looks like, if you can imagine a conveyor belt and then a shoe will be mounted in a, a fixture and lowered down on the conveyor belt and we'll change the angle of that shoe to either have a heel strike or a toe strike and then that conveyor belt moves and it measures how much force it takes to move across that sole.

Dave Walsh (05:17):

When people think of cutting edge technology, they'll often think about science fiction topics like artificial intelligence or quantum computing, but the field of footwear has some emerging technologies as well. So maybe the two of you could go into what some of those newer technologies are and what types of standards might be required for them in the future?

Matt Piotrowski (05:35):

From what I'm seeing, I think the biggest technology on the horizon would be 3D printing and from that custom footwear. And so I think there's still lots of things to work out to before that's commercial, but the change in comfort and performance that people will be able, will have available to them will be something that we'll have to take into account when we're, we're about standards and and performance requirements. 'cause today it's geared towards mass produced footwear and we test a certain size and we're aware of how, how that's affected when things get graded up or down. So how it gets smaller, bigger throughout the size run. So I, I think the committee will definitely be keeping tabs on how custom footwear and eventually custom safety footwear is gonna impact the marketplace and, and the needs that the end users and, you know, everyone out there working want ensure that their safety, you know, is isn't compromised and they get the performance benefits of this, this new emerging technology.

Eric Olson (06:35):

Yeah, I would agree. I mean, I think that's a huge one. I also think there's so much technology going into components as far as like new midsoles, new tread patterns, all of those things that go into affecting the slip resistance. And we can use existing testing that we have to to measure those. But I think, um, you know, some of these new foams for the midsole, some of those new compounds for outsoles will dramatically change comfort performance of footwear as they get implemented.

Matt Piotrowski (07:06):

I think Eric makes an excellent point. The F 1330 committee has, does an excellent job of, I think adapting our standards and performance requirements to not only how footwear changes, but how work changes too and how people are doing it. So for a static dis this is something that protects the wearer from some shock resistance underfoot, but also protects the equipment they're working on. So think people that are working in environments around, uh, computer chips and other sensitive equipment satellites, things like that where you can't have a, a static shock from your finger fry, a circuit board or something that you won't know about until it's, until it's tested. So as those things have become more, I guess fine tuned, our committee has actually shrunk the, or it's made the, the resistance range smaller for those types of environments. So again, it's, it's all about adapting to new technologies, new ways of working, and just with the way everything's going, the constant change that comes with it, which makes it so important that the, you know, every five, six years or so that the standards are reviewed and made sure that they're still, you know, applicable to the environment today.

Dave Walsh (08:14):

Yeah, and it's interesting that you mentioned 3D printing a few minutes ago because we've done events on a variety of topics here, podcasts on all different topics, and that comes up as a disruptive technology everywhere, whether it's it's the field of nuclear power or the biomedical field because when you have a, a manufacturing process in place at a facility or a plant, that's one thing. But when you have individual locations printing either a replacement part for a nuclear factory or a stent for someone's heart, that throws everything into, into a little bit of upheaval, you know, how you ensure that everything is meeting the standard and uniform. And it's interesting to hear that that's the same for footwear as well. So another big issue in the field of footwear of course is safety and protection. You know, in addition to performance and other factors, workers in various industries need to be protected from, you know, crushing weight on their toes, electrical shocks, all sorts of hazards. So what can you tell us about f thirteen's work in this area and that's out that goes out to either of you who want to take it?

Eric Olson (09:11):

Yeah, I mean, I can take this one. I, I mean one of the first tests in 24 12 is impact and compression where we impact a toe cap and we compress a toe cap that's ensuring that those toe caps can withstand a certain amount of force. And that method was written in light of everything that's happening in the industry, ensuring that people that wear steel toe boots are safe. And we also are testing metatarsal impact and while we understand that test is not great, we are doing more research to create a better test method for that to ensure safety going forward.

Matt Piotrowski (09:44):

To kind of hop on what Eric said there, so the committee has safety toe testing, we also do underfoot puncture resistance. So if, if someone were to step on a nail like from a framing nail, something like that, they'll have protection underfoot, like you mentioned before, protection from electricity. So again, you're on a work site, someone steps unafraid extension cord, they're gonna be protected from that type of risk as well. And then, you know, like I discussed a little bit earlier on the static depi, which is a little bit more unique, we also have within their conductive footwear. And so that's for end uses where people are working around combustible materials or explosives, I mean, know some really high risk, high danger things. And so these are all industries that that we look to serve and and to look after. And then on top of all that, we also have another standard F 28 92 that's for safety footwear that doesn't have tow protection.

(10:34):

So, you know, again, general trades where they may not need a safety tow, but they still want that electric hazard protection or underfoot protection or slip resistance of course, which we've talked about a few times all fall underneath those standards. I'd love to expand to kind of what Eric said too about the metatarsal protection and the research we've kicked off at the University of Waterloo. So today that standard is a pass fail based off of deformation and we thought there was a way to improve it by looking at impact energy. And so we've, we've started a multi-year study with the University of Waterloo where they were doing cadaveric testing of, of feet to see what it takes to break a metatarsal. And then working through that to make a foot form that will mimic, you know, a foot and to eventually establish an impact energy that would be safe, you know, to prevent breaking of metatarsals. The committee is really committed to, I think, constantly looking at how we do things, how we can improve it, and we did a, I think a terrific job of fundraising a, a substantial amount of money from the committee at large to fund that. And we're on our second round of fundraising, so yeah, it's very impactful.

Dave Walsh (11:46):

A fascinating thing you mentioned that I wanna follow up on as a, again, as a lay person hearing this for the first time, as you mentioned, cadaveric testing. So what you're saying is in the test they'll use an actual human foot to determine the pressure needed to break a metatarsal that's fascinating

Eric Olson (12:00):

In the research process, yes.

Dave Walsh (12:02):

Yeah, right. Not in your, yeah, not in your private testing

Eric Olson (12:05):

Language. Yeah, I think once we, once we, we got that data, now we're moving forward different solenoids and testing and, and figuring out what that import impact force is, they've made significant progress in a short amount of time.

Dave Walsh (12:17):

That's something I did not expect to be discussing today, <laugh>, so that, that came outta nowhere. But a follow up question for this though is I spoke with F 13 staff manager internally here, Travis Murdoch, I'll give him a shout out. And he told me that one of the most frequently asked questions that your committee encounters involves the two safety standards F 24 12 and F 24 13. And the difference between them, they're two very important protection related standards. So I don't know who wants to take it first, but maybe you could explain, uh, the difference between those two.

Eric Olson (12:47):

Sure. I I could take this one back. So 24 12 establishes all of the test methods and then 24 13 gives performance requirements. So we use 24 13 to tell who passes, who fails, but we're performing 20 the test methods in 24 12.

Dave Walsh (13:04):

Did you get it right, Matt? Was that the, was that the correct

Matt Piotrowski (13:06):

Answer? Yeah, I can't say it any better than that. <laugh>, I get that question a lot. So it's not just Travis.

Eric Olson (13:11):

Yeah, but in the,

Dave Walsh (13:12):

Yeah,

Eric Olson (13:12):

Explain it. Trying customers like it's the peanut butter and jelly. You can't have a sandwich without both.

Dave Walsh (13:17):

Well, we can refer them to this podcast now and, uh, at the minute mark that we determined it was in. So we're talking about safety and we're talking about protection and performance, but F 13 has many additional standards and I'm sure they involve factors and features of footwear that we might not even think of in daily life. So maybe you could each talk about some of the other work F 13 does and what do you think are some of the most impactful standards the committee has published and how have they helped people in daily life? You know, maybe ways that people don't even think of.

Matt Piotrowski (13:45):

Yeah, Dave. So in addition to the safety, we also have F 2232, which is the test method for determining how much load it takes to detach a high heel. So for the women out there that, that wear high heels, the, there's a standard that measures to make sure they're safe and how it applies to them. And our biggest goal is that the people wearing safety footwear or any footwear in general, like never even consider this thing. They never consider traction maybe right in their daily lives or on the work site. They never really have to think about are they gonna be protected. It's just inherently there. And so those are the type of standards we, we want to put into place for the footwear manufacturers and the, the component suppliers to leverage. So again, that the people working and and wearing this type of footwear can just do their jobs. And Eric, if you could go into how some other stuff we've been working on for the general population.

Eric Olson (14:38):

Yeah. Waterproof boots and waterproof, just footwear in general are something that people buy all the time. They just assume that they are, what we're doing in F 13 is we're trying to make sure that when that label is on a shoe, that it means something. So we're developing a test to ensure that waterproof footwear is in fact waterproof or less waterproof, more water resistant, and creating distinguishing between those two in establishing performance requirements for those so that when a manufacturer does label their footwear that way, it means something. And that's something like Matt was saying with traction for the longest time everybody had slip resistance on their shoes, but it really, it was never vetted, never tested. Now we have that performance requirement allowing them to label their footwear appropriately and to the discerning consumer, they can see on that label that it has been tested. So it, it really protects not only safety workers, but anyone wearing shoes that they want to be waterproof or slip sistant.

Dave Walsh (15:35):

Well, most of these recordings we'll ask our guests where they see their field in the future, and a lot of times if we're talking about commercial space flight, they'll be talking about getting to Mars and things like that. I'm not sure if there's a, an equivalent here in the footwear field, but where do you see your field in the next 20 or 30 years and, and what kind of standards will be needed in the future? What will footwear look like in about 30 years?

Matt Piotrowski (15:55):

So I think 20, 30 years from now, I think we'll see lighter weight footwear. I think we'll see maybe slimmer, less bulky footwear as the foams and protective features can get smaller and you can get more out of them with less space. I think we'll see those things change substantially. And again, I think with the influx of wearable technology, think about pedometers and, and things that you can wear today and, and just give more information to other things. I, I can see that stuff translating to footwear, whether it be safety or otherwise. I mean, how cool would it be if your footwear could tell you ahead of time that you're about to trip just to warn you or something like that? Right. Or even if you're, I think, and again, you're working in certain fields, you may be working around robots and robotics, so maybe there's some sort of proximity sensors again. So I think it'll be more of that connectiveness. And of course you'll need standards and performance requirements to make sure everything works together and talks to one another. But I, I think that's probably where I think or see the future of footwear and, and the standards that we needed for it.

Eric Olson (16:59):

Yeah, and to your earlier point, Matt, I think we're heading towards this customizable footwear, not everybody's foot is the same. And you know, to address that, I think the 3D printing, but also like using components that we don't have yet that are stronger lighter weight, provide better comfort. So I see the future of footwear just being more customizable, more comfortable and, uh, perform better.

Dave Walsh (17:22):

Well, and I think it's interesting that Matt mentioned connectivity because that's another big issue across multiple fields. It's, it's funny because, you know, even though maybe, uh, footwear and home appliances don't sound like related fields, home appliances, that's one of the biggest issues right now that the, they're becoming connected to tell you when you're outta milk or something like that. And to think of footwear that way, I, you know, I for one, don't like wearing an Apple watch. So if there was a pedometer in my sneaker, that would be so much easier. I'd welcome that. So, you know, one question we always of our guests is about the next generation of standards professionals and A STM puts a high priority on student members and early career professionals. What would you say to a student or early career professional considering joining A STM and maybe becoming a, a part of your committee F 13? Did it work for you? Did it help you?

Matt Piotrowski (18:08):

You just gotta jump in it. It's a little bit intimidating sitting around a room of usually industry experts, but it's such a terrific opportunity to learn and, and make connections with other people in, in the field. Personally, coming from footwear, I've worked with the people from a bunch of different brands, from different testing labs and backgrounds and forensics engineers, and there's the scope of people that you can meet, interact with and learn from is unparalleled. I haven't seen anything in my career that's, that's similar. And then you get the opportunity to do as much as you want, right? So there's always the need for people to participate and, and make an impact and people to mentor you and bring you along to get you there and do that. And so if you're thinking about it, just, just jump in and join maybe virtually first to, to see how it goes and then, you know, show up to one of the meetings and you'll be welcomed with open arms.

Eric Olson (19:00):

Absolutely. I think it is super intimidating speaking from my point of view, someone that came in from outside the industry. It's remarkable though, everyone there, they're, they're an expert in their field, but they're very welcoming, they're willing to teach you. And I think that's all it takes is just someone showing up with an open mind and, uh, it's been transformative from my career.

Dave Walsh (19:23):

Well, you both mentioned jumping into the process and getting into the committee meetings and things like that and that, that reminds me of another question we like to ask our guests, which is about the, the A STM standards development process in general. We've been discussing, you know, the earlier the slip resistance standard and you were talking about impact tests on steel towed boots, things like that. How has the A STM process itself, that consensus standards process affected your ability in F 13 to develop standards? Has it made it easier, has it made it more effective? Has it made the standards more robust? Having all the different stakeholders in the room and, and coming to that consensus?

Eric Olson (19:57):

It's been amazing. It makes our standards so much stronger and vetted by, you know, true industry leaders, not just in the same field, but I lo really like being part of the whole F 13 because we'll get a lot of comments from engineers that are experts in building traction, proof sidewalks and things like that, and they'll have a comment on a waterproof method. Just you get a wide breadth of experience and knowledge by having the, the collaborative effort out there. And I gotta tell you, it makes every standard that we've ever put out better, they catch something that we miss. A lot of times when you're writing these standards, you use layman's terms and jargon that only pertains to your group. And when someone just asks the question, Hey, what is that? What do you mean by that? It really makes you go back, write the standard so that everyone can understand it. And I think it makes a better standard that everyone can understand.

Matt Piotrowski (20:47):

Yeah, I think the only thing I could add to what Eric said is you need all those points of view. The smaller the group you have, the fewer things that you, you, you can consider, right? You can't consider every possible situation. So the more people that get involved and say, Hey, what about this, what about that really drives to a really solid, robust test method and performance requirements when you, when you get all those just different points of view. And like Eric was saying, like we may in certain industry hone on certain things and completely forget something else just because we just overlook it, right? And so just those different sets of eyes on it really helps make, uh, improve the process and, and get things along. And it's always, you know, collaborative too. Everyone's there for the same reason.

Dave Walsh (21:32):

Well, we're coming to the end of our time at this point, but I did have one last question for each of you, and it is, if you could leave our audience with one final thought, you know, one final thought on the field of footwear, and it could be the standards process itself or it could be footwear in general. What would it be? Eric, we could start with you. Would you tell people don't walk on ice or, uh, <laugh>, don't use salt outside of your apartment before you go down the stairs, you know, that kind of thing.

Eric Olson (21:58):

<laugh> Well, all of, yes, all of that. But, uh, but no, I think, uh, read the labels on the footwear, there's a lot of effort and a lot of testing and, and things that have gone into those footwear to make them what they are, you know? So just to educate yourself on what you're buying and just know that there's a whole group of people working together to ensure that those that footwear's performing as it should.

Dave Walsh (22:19):

What would you say, Matt?

Matt Piotrowski (22:21):

That's a tough one. I think just, uh, regardless of what it is, I think maybe ask the question, you know, reach out to whatever the customer service line is or, you know, even through a STM, you know, back to the, the technical lead. If you have a question or doubt on something or how this will affect how I'm using something, I, I think just ask is the people on the other side of that are most likely going to know or, or be able to point you in the right direction. So whether it comes to, to safety or just performance or general things like that, I think just ask the question if you've got one.

Dave Walsh (22:51):

All right. Well, I think that's about all the time we have today. I want to thank you both for being with us and, uh, we really appreciate your time.

Eric Olson (22:57):

Thank you.

Dave Walsh (22:58):

Thank you very much for having me. If you wanna learn more about any of the standards discussed in this episode, visit astm.org for all the latest. And if you enjoyed the show, remember to like and subscribe so you never miss an episode. I'm Dave Walsh, and this has been Standards Impact presented by A STM International.