Standards Impact

Making Waves: Standards for Water Sports

• ASTM International • Season 3 • Episode 5

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As wave pools continue to grow in popularity, you no longer have to live near the water to catch a wave. From surfing to wakeboarding to water skiing, learn how standards help make water sports and amusements safer.

Listen as host David Walsh talks to two pioneers in wave pool technology: Thomas J. Lochtefeld, CEO at Surf Loch LLC, and Marshall Myrman, president of FlowRider, Inc. (a division of WhiteWater West) — along with Bethany Suderman, PhD, PE, senior biomechanical engineer at Guidance Engineering.

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Presented by ASTM International


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Dave Walsh (00:12):

No matter where you live around the world, we all know that summer revolves around the beach and the water, whether you head to the ocean, the nearby lake, or one of the many popular waterparks and attractions around the world, summer is about cooling off and having fun in the water. But as with most of our fun recreational activities, safety needs to come first and that's where standards come in. I'm Dave Walsh, Editor-in-Chief of Standardization News, and I'm joined by three industry experts today. Our guests are Tom Lock Felt owner and CEO at Surf Lock LLC, and Marshall Merman, president of Flow Rider Incorporated. Both are members of the Committee on amusement rides and devices F 24. And our third guest is Bethany Suman, PhD, senior biomechanical engineer at Guidance Engineering. She's a member of the Committee on Snow and Water Sports F 27. Okay. Well the first question is for you, Tom, the Beach Grit Network recently called you the Wave Pool King in a podcast that you appeared in, in which I watched. It was very interesting. But in that podcast you discussed your Palm Springs Surf Club, which looked like a blast to someone like me from Landlock, New Jersey. And it's been miserable weather this spring, so I can't even picture California surf weather. But what can you tell our audience about the field of wave pools and how you've seen it evolve in your career technology wise and as an industry, as a business, the whole nine yards?

Tom Lochtefeld (01:25):

Well, it started for me way back in the early eighties when developing water parks and I had put together a park in Los Angeles called Raging Waters. And then when I went out there with my <laugh>, I took my, one of my boards out to surf in the wave pool that we built, which it was kind of this bouncy, what we call a body bobber. I mean, just your fins hit the bottom. It was another disaster. So what I, you know, kind of vowed at that time is I'm gonna fix this and kind of bring the experience of surfing to the every, because for me, that was a real driver as a kid to, you know, of everything I did and why I went to the university that I did, which was UCSD is 'cause the surf was good <laugh>. So I, you know, I think subsequently I went on and developed other water parks and then I sold those out and then I did Flow Rider, which was a sheet wave attraction, took all that money, put it into that, and then developed that as a simulation to kind of teach people what it was like to take the drop, carve a turn, you know, feel that experience and that obviously a lot of people kind of identified with it.

(02:35):

And that's what allowed me to sell a couple hundred of those around the world. And Marshall helped me out with that, but always in the back of my mind was to get a real surf pool. But way back in, you know, the eighties, they just didn't have the technology, you didn't have the motion control, you didn't have the, the capability of economically understanding where the water was gonna go in the pool. And so that took up until the past 10 years, computerization simulation, all those technology kind of came about, which enabled the capability to build this equipment that allows us to get to the state of the art. So that's pretty much how it happened and, and why we're riding this standard practice for design manufactured construction maintenance of surf basins.

Dave Walsh (03:27):

And did you ever think it would get this big, because I know when I was a kid in the eighties, as you just mentioned, I don't remember too many wave pools or water parks. There were a few, but uh, it seems like today there are many, many more and that it's become a much bigger business.

Tom Lochtefeld (03:40):

Yeah, absolutely. No, no. I always knew it was gonna big <laugh> it. It's gonna get, I mean look at it this way, golf resorts, right in Palm Springs alone, there's over a hundred golf resorts and a golf resort costs as much as a surf pool. It's 20 times bigger use, 20 times as much water. And it's looks how much money those things make around, I think in the US there's, I don't know, over a thousand, 2000. I don't even know how many, but there's a lot.

Dave Walsh (04:09):

Well, all right. You know you mentioned Marsh and he's right next to you on my screen here. So Marsh, you are the president of Flow Rider Incorporated, and as we mentioned in the introduction, your company manufactures wave machines and wave pools working largely with hotels and tourist attractions. Again, big business. So what is your take on the evolution of the field and did you think it would become as big as this in your career? But you know, just as important, what do you see in the future as it continues to grow and move forward? Where do you think the next step is for maybe not just flow Rider but the entire industry?

Marshall Myrman (04:41):

Well, I kind of gotta go back a little bit. 'cause Tom and I, we used to be part of like the Dawn patrol and we'd surf early in the morning and he'd be telling me about all this stuff that he was doing. And you know, I was more in like corporations and uh, I was actually in the golf industry and you know, I remember when he, when he had the first flow rider right up here in Vista at this little waterpark and you know, he rolled it out and invited all his friends to come ride it. Nobody could ride it <laugh> except Tom <laugh>, you know, so at some point in time he is like, Hey, you need to come help me out with this thing. And we figured that out around 2008. And for me, at the time, it was completely different. I was in consumer goods manufacturing and this was more like capital equipment and project management.

(05:29):

And as we kind of learned our way along the, the market channels for a stationary wave system are numerous. I mean, one of our large emerging markets right now is backyards. You know, we just have people, you know, especially since COVID. But aside from that, the product I'd say was born into the waterpark industry by Tom and the help of, uh, north American licensee at the time and kind of went into municipal. But where I think the major traction was gained was when Wave Lock at the time sold Flow Rider to Royal Caribbean. And from there, I mean Royal has, you know, 27 units now on 24 ships. And that happened in a fairly short period of time. And we're talking 19 years and I mean, you're talking about the largest floating hotel chain brand in the world. And that has opened up, you know, the hotel resort market.

(06:27):

So you know what we do are small footprint attractions. And back in about 2011 or so, 12, Tom said to me, he goes, Hey, this organization A STM is, they're creating a standard for stationary waves. You need to go and get involved. And I was like, okay. So, you know, I signed up to a meeting, it was at Valley Ho, one of our favorite little destinations, sat there in Scottsdale. And I walked into this meeting and the people were trying really hard, but they were trying to wedge a stationary wave system into a water slide template for a standard, and it just didn't work. And at the end of the first meeting, they took a vote and said, I should chair the committee <laugh>. So be careful what you ask for. You know, that's, that's kind of how I got involved in it. And um, from there, you know, it was like to, to build out the standard.

(07:24):

And I think anybody that's in that position knows, it's kind of like herding cats. I'm not an engineer by training, but it was just getting it to a, a point where we could get it passed. Somebody came to me, well, somebody, Gerald Kak came to me, I don't know, about six years ago at an A STM meeting and said, Hey, we need a standard for surf pools. And that's kind of how basically recruited Tom who's done a lot of the heavy lifting on, on this particular standard, which is actually very, very close to pass as far as the industry goes. I mean, it's limitless really. I mean, I see surf pools going into real estate developments and people are selling off prime, ocean front real estate in front of the wave and not for pennies. I mean, we're talking multimillion dollar lots in front of surf pools.

(08:20):

And Tom was always thinking about these products as a larger play in development. And even as far back as like 2008, he had a, a model on top of the roof, which, which had a flying, you know, we called it a flying reef or a moving reef. And it's kind of what another company uses is their technology. So always many steps ahead, abandoned that went to technology that's more efficient and economical. And I think that's where the surf pools in the future, at least the successful ones are gonna be based upon that type of technology. So Tom's main goal of bringing that activity to people who'd never be able to experience the thrill of riding a wave, whether it's a stationary wave or wave moving towards shore, you know, was spot on. And that's what he preached when I first talked to him about joining Wave Lock. And I think you can just see what's happening now as it's just blowing up. I mean, everybody wants to surf, everybody wants to golf. I mean, we have a saying, I I do, I've played golf my whole life. It's like surf am golf, pm I don't know when you work, but <laugh>, I gotta find some time in there somewhere, right Tom?

Tom Lochtefeld (09:37):

That's

Marshall Myrman (09:37):

It. So the, the, the standards that are being created I think are extremely important because you have so many people on the fringe trying to create stuff. And I think everybody needs to be held to some kind of technical and moral standard when creating these devices. Because let's face it, you know, surfing's a sport and any sport you participate in is not risk averse. You know, I mean it's like the one thing for certain with a board sport, skateboarding, snowboarding, surfing, wakeboarding, whatever you want, if you stand, you will fall. It's just a hundred percent certainty. Newton was absolutely correct, <laugh> with respect to gravity. So, you know, that's kind of the great circle of my life in this industry. And it's certainly about 50% of the time Tom's put into it when we all thought he was a complete wing nut going down this path, <laugh> of creating, you know, artificial surfing machines.

Dave Walsh (10:37):

Well, you know, you touched a little bit there on standards and of course this is ASTMs official podcast. So we wanna touch on that. And one story we bring up repeatedly on this podcast is the beta max versus VHS moment. And it's a great example for people who don't have a familiarity with standards of the way standards can open up a market. Uh, you know, beta Max remained closed, it was a proprietary standard, they didn't want anyone to imitate it. Whereas VHS uh, was put out there and quickly dominated the market. VHS became the dominant machine in the eighties. But what would you both say about the impact of standards on the wave pool market? Was there a similar moment to that Betamax VHS moment or is it just kind of like a steady growth and an impact in the terms of what you were talking about with holding people to sort of accountability with regard to quality and even in immoral sense, you mentioned?

Marshall Myrman (11:26):

Yeah, for me it's not so much beta versus VHS, it's more of, you know, what can we do to make the activity safer? I hate to use the word safe, but it, it really, that's what it boils down to. And, and I mean, look, I I, I had no idea what a STM was when I joined. I did a little research, found out it was formed in like 1897 because railroad ties were snapping, right? Well if that's not about safety, then what is, and with stationary waves and with wave pools, people could get hurt, you know, and they could die. And uh, to me it's all about risk and mitigating risk and trying to make things as safe as possible. I mean, the fact is is that somebody rides a stationary wave and especially, you know, let's say a, an adult, if they fail and they have a bad experience, they will never do it again. You know, so how can we make this a truly enjoyable activity and make it really, really fun? And that happens through, you know, standards, it happens through training and really it's just a focus on the activity and making it safe and fun.

Dave Walsh (12:41):

And Tom, what have you seen in terms of the impact of standards on the field? I mean, uh, marsh mentioned that you were the one who suggested he go to that first A STM meeting way back when

Marshall Myrman (12:49):

You remember that Tom?

Tom Lochtefeld (12:51):

Yeah, <laugh> <laugh>, no, I, the effect is to basically provide a roadmap for someone, you know, particularly I see designers, engineers, operators, how can you make sure to have something to check all the boxes? That's probably like the biggest thing I see, you know, how did you think about this? What about that? You know, so that's the real value.

Dave Walsh (13:17):

Well Beth has been waiting patiently and we finally do have a question for her. So we're gonna turn to the field of water sports, that includes water skiing, wakeboarding, et cetera, which could be done in a wave pool. Well, I assume, but your field is specifically biomechanics and I know some of your work has revolved around tensile strength of ropes for these sports and other related things. So maybe you could just tell us about your background and how it relates to the field of water sports in general.

Bethany Suderman (13:42):

Sure. Like you said, my background is in biomechanics and that's really, we describe it as the application of engineering principles to the human body. And specifically I look at injury biomechanics, which is looking at how people get injured. And at the company I work at, we really focus on recreational sports, so water skiing, snow skiing, snowboarding, mountain biking, things like that. And so we're looking at how people get injured and how we can reduce those injuries, make these activities safer. So that's really where my background is. And my company was involved in snow sports and they were on the A STM committees developing standards for that. And there are a lot of snow sport activities that are similar to water sport activities. For example, like snow skiing has a lot of similarities to water skiing as far as the skis that are used and the bindings and things like that.

(14:42):

And so we had some water sports manufacturers approach us and ask us how they could get involved and start developing standards related to their water sports equipment. And that's how I got involved in A STM standards and developing them specifically for water sports. And so you talked about tensile strength of ropes, that's one of the first standards that we developed in our committee. And one of the reasons that we wanted to focus on that was like Marsh said, you know, reduce injuries related to water sports, you know, do these activities to have a good time. And you know, if we have standards for the equipment that they use, we can make it a lot safer. You know, if we have ropes that are breaking while people are water skiing or tubing, you know, the ropes can go back into the boat and hurt people that are on the boat or the people that are on say a towable inflatable or a tube, if the rope breaks they become a projectile and they can go much further than the length of the rope once it breaks and could hit things on shore or other boats. And so we started with that standard just to really increase safety in the water sports industry.

Dave Walsh (15:53):

Well you're touching on my next question and it it relates to the same question that I asked Tom and Marsh and it's about the impact of standards. So you just described the standards for ropes and how that helps, but what impact have standards had on the water sports that you're involved in? I mean, are there any numbers about how much safer it's made it or has it expanded the market? Did it grow once the safety standards were in place? Maybe it made the businesses less risky, you know, better able to operate that kind of a thing. What kind of an impact has it had on the world of water sports?

Bethany Suderman (16:23):

Yeah, so I would say when we started developing the standards, a lot of the manufacturers had in-house testing that they were already doing. And each manufacturer kind of had their own way that they did it. And when we started developing the standards, they came together along with other groups of people to kind of make a uniform standard that applies to all the equipment. So that helps users know that the equipment that they get, that it's going to be tested to that same standard across any type of manufacturer. And so I think that gives, uh, consumers, you know, some comfort in knowing that, you know, I don't have any numbers regarding on uh, you know, if, if it reduces so many accidents or things like that. But we have done some testing in the field of water sports where we measured, you know, the loading on a rope when you have a six person inflatable being towed behind a boat and it's being whipped out of the wake.

(17:22):

And so we've tested that and we know that the standards that we're putting together are going to be able to withstand the type of loading that everyday riders are going to be putting on these either water skis or a tobo inflatables. And so we certainly have data to back up the standards that are being developed. And one of the other things that the standards has done for consumers is that, for example, wakeboard bindings, they were different for each type of, you know, manufacturer. So if you got bindings from one manufacturer, they wouldn't necessarily fit on the board of another manufacturer 'cause they specified their binding settings differently. And so now that we have a standard for that, consumers can use a binding from one manufacturer and put it on a different board, they know it's gonna fit that it's gonna work together. And so that just makes it nicer for the users to be able to, to know that's gonna happen.

Dave Walsh (18:19):

And actually, you just mentioned bindings, that was gonna be my follow-up question. I mean, a rope is the most obvious implement and water sports that could use standardization. But um, what are some of the other areas, I guess bindings is a big one. What are some of the areas where you see a lot of the dangers and that need standards?

Bethany Suderman (18:34):

Yeah, so other standards that we've developed are like the breaking strength of water skis and wakeboards. These things do break when people are using them on the water and that can obviously lead to injuries. And so we've developed standards to specify how the equipment should be tested. And so again, it's being tested across all manufacturers in the same way. And the goal there is to really be able to reduce the number of breaks we have in the water ski or wakeboard.

Dave Walsh (19:06):

So we've been talking a lot about the positives of standards, the positives about the fields you're all in, but there are challenges and obstacles as well. So I thought I'd, I'd go around to each person and turn, and we'll start with you Tom, what are some of the biggest challenges you're seeing in your field now and in the future? I mean, what's a major obstacle to overcome in the field of wave pools? You know, if, if there's one area that you could say we're gonna need another standard in that area or this needs to be addressed, what is it looking forward?

Tom Lochtefeld (19:32):

Yeah, it's, it's gonna be the integration of surfing waves with other uses. And that would be, you know, where you get a particular owner, developer, what that wants, the pool in the context of other pools such as say a bathing pool for kids or some type of integration with a water slide pool, lazy river, you name your attraction. 'cause invariably what happens is when we designed the protocol and kind of the overview relative to the standards was to separate surf pools and surf basins because they were so large. Take for example, water quality, the turnover rate, you don't need to have the turnover rate of a children's pool in a massive surf pool because the best solution for pollution is dilution. So when you got a huge volume of water, you can turn it over less, at least theoretically because then your agents of viral problem or it's spread out over so many more gallons and then you don't have the potential for some type of adverse consequence in, in terms of a health situation. So we got that through in, in terms of the basins where you don't need as, the standards are different than in other types of pools, but now when you have these mixed use pools, that's gonna be a whole other animal and how we design those pools. So that's the next challenge. I see.

Dave Walsh (21:08):

That's interesting. And Marsh, you're in the same field with Tom. I mean, is that the same challenge you see on the horizon or do you see anything different?

Marshall Myrman (21:14):

Well, Tom's kinda leading the charge in terms of large acres, huge surf footprint, surf pools or smaller. Whereas, you know, the focus for our business is small footprint, stationary waves, and by small footprint I'm talking two to 3000 square feet. And the challenge for us with respect to the standard is that stationary waves come in all kinds of different shapes and forms and technologies. So when we first got the stationary wave system standard passed, it was really focused primarily on thin sheet stationary waves, thin sheet being, you know, three inches of water going up a ramp and into a recovery and recirculating. And now we have river waves, there are stationary waves which you know, kind of shoot water, let's call it horizontally into a pool to create a wave like what's next. And so how do you accommodate those types of products into the standard?

(22:18):

It, it's pretty complicated actually because they come in so many different sizes and shapes and technologies. And our challenge is gonna be from a standards point of view is making sure that we encapsulate everything into the standard. The one thing I'll say about A STM that I've learned since I got involved is, you know, I'm just like an administrator and like I said, somebody said, it's like herding cats while the cats are the brains, you know, we've got so many smart people that volunteer their time in these committees from risk attorneys to engineers to corporations like two, you know, all these people volunteer their time to come in and have a say, which, which is really, really important because without that then you don't encompass the population for the products. I think it's really a unique organization that A STM has built over the years because, you know, while there are a STM employees, the committees are all volunteers from competing companies and like I'd mentioned others, academics. It's a very unique, unusual situation. But yeah, the, the biggest challenge is encompassing all the different technologies to make sure that we can embrace them in the standard and make sure that the people have some kind of guideline or roadmap as Tom mentioned to follow.

Dave Walsh (23:42):

Yeah. And Beth, what are you looking for? What, what are you looking ahead to in your field?

Bethany Suderman (23:46):

Yeah, I would say that keeping up with the new equipment that's being developed and creating standards for those in the water sports world, like wake surfing has become very popular, hydrofoils, things like that that are in the area of the, the water sports equipment, which we're developing standards for. So just keeping up with that will be a challenge because there's new types of equipment every year that, you know, need to be incorporated in the standards like Marsh said, or new standards need to be developed for that. So I think that's one of the challenges. And then another one would be just making sure, you know, as new manufacturers pop up that we're able to include them in the standards development and get them to come on board so we can have their perspective as well. I would say those are kind of the two challenges I see in the next coming years.

Dave Walsh (24:42):

Well, getting new people to come on board is a direct segue to my next question and at A STM, one of the things we're always looking towards is the next generation of standards development professionals, people who will help write the standards of the future. So my question for each of you is, what advice would you give to a young professional starting out in your particular field and would you advise them to join A STM and engage the standard development process in F 24, F 27, whatever committee they might choose? And maybe we should start with Tom again since we're coming around in a circle.

Tom Lochtefeld (25:13):

Yeah, I, I see especially in the operations side or engineering side, when one goes down and looks at the operating procedures manuals that document all of these attractions, I think that really sets forth kind of like you really start to understand the cause and effect of these standards and why they get implemented. They usually get involved into the business through operations. So I see having that call it pathway with just how things, you know, for purposes of your training. You know, I think it's a good segue into, you know, introducing people to A STM.

Marshall Myrman (25:55):

Yeah, I think one of the things that A STM does a nice job of, especially F 24, is there's huge student contingencies at these meetings. Most of 'em looking for jobs in the, uh,

(26:07):

Recreation industry. And by getting involved at the student level makes it so that when they do get a job, they'll have an interest in it going forward. Subsequently to that, I mean, it's important for people like me and Tom and whoever else is involved in business and the industry to kind of like recruit people to get involved at different levels. And I think, uh, much like Tom kind of, he didn't really recruit me, just told me to go <laugh> meaning,

(26:35):

But, uh, I think it's important for, you know, there to be kind of like a legacy of involvement where people who have been involved get others to get involved. Like it has to be a, a team effort to keep this momentum going. And I think that momentum is alive in F 24 for sure. All you have to do is go to one of the meetings and see the level of involvement by all the different factions, operators, attorneys, engineers, designers and the, and the companies that build these machines. So I think it's our responsibility to keep that legacy going.

Bethany Suderman (27:10):

Yeah, for, I would say for manufacturers, the, the benefit of being involved in A STM and and YAC other people wanting to get involved is that you can write the standards or be involved in writing the standard yourself. You have a direct way to develop that standard and have input on what is in there. And so I think that's a huge benefit if you're a manufacturer that you can be involved in that process and for, you know, users or consumers of the standard in injury biomechanics, often if we're looking at an accident where someone, uh, may have been injured and they were on some type of recreational equipment, one of the first things that we will do is look and see, did that equipment follow an A SDM standard? Make sure it followed it first as part of investigating that type of injury. And so that's one of the reasons that we're involved on a STM committees on the injury biomechanics side as well at looking at does this equipment fit the standard and kind of check that off the list first.

Dave Walsh (28:09):

Well, if you can believe it, we have reached the end of our time. I could keep talking about this forever. As I mentioned I said earlier, New Jersey is landlocked, it's of course not landlocked, but where I live is landlocked. I'm <laugh> on the western side of the state, so I'm gonna have to come out and visit California and see all these golf courses in Waterparks. I think. So, you know, in closing, just wanted to thank you all for being with us and we really appreciate your time. Thanks a lot.

Marshall Myrman (28:32):

Yeah. Thank you.

Bethany Suderman (28:33):

Thank you.

Dave Walsh (28:37):

If you wanna learn more about any of the standards discussed in this episode, visit astm.org for all the latest. And if you enjoyed the show, remember to like and subscribe so you never miss an episode. I'm Dave Walsh and this has been Standards Impact presented by A STM International.